GSD Illustrated standard - Page 3

Mack, because of that ( perfect speed ) I said "they start to "scramble" at a given point".
A "scrambling dog" is handled too fast for its abilities ( once again: conformation and willingness, let´s add proper training ).

We do view this from two sides:
You say they are scrambling because the speed is too fast - I say the dog is scrambling because it doesn´t have the capacities to trot at that speed.

In real life f.e. during "tending" ( learned this word today ) the dog won´t do this for a longer period of time, but the dog is able to do so if needed.
As a show handler I do a shit job as soon as my dog starts to "scramble"...

Once again: My "job" for years was to find the perfect speed for each single dog I handled - all of them different - good and bad - but all of them a combination of angulations/body structure and the will / power to move.

Mack, this whole discussion is more or less useless.
It´s like always - there is a standard, there are rules.
For a V-rating the dog doesn´t need to be able to trot fast, a "normal" dog is fine.
For a passing score on a IPO trial the dog doesn´t need to have outstanding drives and working abilities, a "normal" dog is fine.
But at least I prefer the outstanding dogs in both venues.
Kind regards

When discussing movement for work or show there is a difference. Apart from the long chase in the biting exercise the working dog works at a normal pace, therefore, there is no proper comparison with what is required of today’s show dogs. The show dogs are being worked for movement far more than is necessary to make a proper judgement for the working dog. Even dogs that are properly constructed will scramble if the handler allows it to do so. It then becomes ungainly and that is when places are lost in competition.

The way that movement was judged from the beginning was for a working dog until Hermann Martin changed the system. Why did he introduce it? We can only speculate on the answer. In my opinion and, I am not alone in thinking this, was because it allowed him to place dogs where he wanted and not necessarily where they deserved to be. Moving a dog very quickly can cover up so many faults. When Hermann Martin was asked after a Sieger show why he made a poor moving dog Sieger he said “he was the best dog” and that was the end of the discussion. I had a friend in Germany who had a very good male and Hermann Martin placed him in the V1 position. My friend did as instructed. When the gaiting was started Hermann Martin quickly place an inferior male into the V1 position and my friend made V2. The dog that started in front of my friend’s dog was made VA and Herr Martin did not want it to be seen that a much better mover started behind him.

I am quite happy not to continue this conversation Susie if that is what you want.

Mackenzie

Thank you both for the discussion! Maybe if Mack is from US (like myself) traveling to Sieger show at that time would provide a very different perspective. Maybe Mack wasn't use to seeing that type and movement? Maybe Susie is from Germany so had lots of chances to see these type of dogs. Both perspectives are correct and both valid.

I think for GSDCA to use any German dog as the ideal in anything is cool. I'll take it!

I often wonder if V or SG dogs outproduce the VA dogs as I tend to like a lot of V/SG dogs better!! Maybe Susie or others familiar with German dogs can comment. Or, does this not happen simply due to lack of opportunity? Thank you. Excellent points on all sides and I believe...like most things...it's all in the perspective!

"When discussing movement for work or show there is a difference."
???  Guess you misunderstood what I tried to say.
"Apart from the long chase in the biting exercise the working dog works at a normal pace, ..." 
Don´t tell this a working guy, he´ll take you apart.

Mac, the dogs are set in place after the "stand examination" ( side, front, back walking forwards, backwards, one fast round without other dogs to compare with ), afterwards the group is walking / sometimes slowly trotting for almost the whole time. There are exactly two "fast rounds" during the whole time in the working dog class, almost at the end of the ringtime,.one round on leash, one round off leash.This procedure didn´t change at all. A slow dog may loose the place within the group ( up to 5 places ), that´s it. The actual placement was made far earlier.

Some judges don´t care about the speed of the leading dog/handler team, some do and slow them down. Some don´t even take a look at the fast round, and some change the placement afterwards. Has been like this all the time, in the eighties and now. The worst case for me as a handler is to stick within a slow group with a fast and willing dog - in case I´m in front with a slow dog, I´ll slow the group down by choice - better for me.

What changed over the years are the handling skills of the show handler - on big shows you need to know what you do, and you need to be fit. Not only the trial handling developed, but the show handling, too.

It´s very, very seldom, that a dog wins or looses more than 5 places during the fast round. Thinking about the end results it doesn´t really matter. The top dogs are used for breeding, no matter VA1 or V10. Their progeny will have to proof their quality - and at that point we are back to the beginning - no ( male ) progeny out of Dingo, although he was VA rated 3 times under two different judges.

Smiley, the handling changed, due to development of the handlers, that´s true, but it doesn´t change the quality of the dogs.

"I often wonder if V or SG dogs outproduce the VA dogs as I tend to like a lot of V/SG dogs better!!"
This does happen, but very, very seldom in the male classes. A female out of unknown parents does have better choices.

Judges are humans, they prefer single dogs and try to develop single lines, a top rated male will almost exclusivly be the result out of a top rated male ( not necessarily VA, but a good one ).

Smiley, this year is my forty fifth year in this breed. I first appreciated the German dogs after seeing a photo of Marko v Cellerland in 1972. I handled many dogs over the years as well as training my own dogs for show and work. I judged my first show in 1976 in the UK. In my own breeding animals I have used only 100% German bloodlines. I used to take my females for mating with German dogs and I have bought dogs from Germany for myself and other people. I was a member of the SV for many years which very useful to me as I was in Germany most weekends for many years.

Susie - I am aware of the of the routine at shows today but before Hermann Martin it was different. I am talking about from the beginning until Hermann Martin became Preident in 1982. He also reduced the gene pool to two dogs with the same sire. The gene pool was further reduced when he decided that the grey, bi-colour and black dogs were excluded. Pre Hermann Martin's era the choice of males was much more diverse and both show and working dogs were much closer in type and ability to work.

Mackenzie

Mack, I know you are aware of the routine... but WHAT did change that much on the Siegershow?
I have visited my first SV OG show in 1979 or 1980, my first Siegershow 1981 Mannheim, no visible changes in the ring for me. The handling skills became better, but that´s it...

What definitely became better:
IPO 2 required for VA rating
IPO 3 required for the next year
HD/ED/DNA proof
ZW
the judges tend to care more about the progeny groups ( almost no more 2 years old males in the VA group )
the dogs have to "out" somehow and the bitework became harder ( unbelievable for a lot of people, but that´s reality )

Not going to argue about H. Martin again - I am a firm believer of a breeder´s free choice. In my country nobody is forced to use VA dogs for breeding, nobody is forced to use black/red dogs - only people who want to earn money and honor "need" to follow the trends within the showlines.

Susie. as far as choice as to which male to use in a mating is concerned no one has been forced to use a particular animal. Freedom of choice is worldwide, or, is it? The gene pool was considerably reduced in the recent past to the point that everyone had to use saturated bloodlines and the inbreed became too close. Where were breeders supposed to go? Follow the herd? Follow the money? etc, etc.

Where did this narrowing begin? Hermann Martin full stop, nothing more to say. All of this is nothing to do with movement and Dingo which is where we started.

Mackenzie, over and out.

Follow the brain.

Susie, out and over