BEWARE Of Breeder or Seller of GSD from Chicago/Bulgaria...Dogs have hereditary EPI disease. - Page 1

I recently purchased an 11 month German Shepherd Pup coming from "showline pedigree" health certificates etc. Dog transaction went smooth however after 2 weeks, we noticed dog continually losing weight. The vet visit confirmed and we tried different approaches including thinking it may be attributed to the dogs travels, nonetheless conducted several tests as well as trying different food approaches. Subsequently the dog was literally starving although he had a great appetite, the dog had constant diarrhea. 1500 dollars later it was ascertained he had the disease EPI, a pancreatic lack of enzyme disease which is hereditary. We tried in good faith to deal with seller however he vanished. He gets his dogs from Bulgaria, and sells them from his Chicago home. Please be aware of as this, if you would like more info as i do not want to post in public his info, I can provide in private if you are planning to purchase a GSD in that area. FYI we kept our dog, have him on lifetime meds, and raw feed now. He is happy and doing well, although the cost will be equal to sending child to college or close to it.

What I wonder about is that he was 11 months in good shape, as you did not mention that he was not, from a poor country that is not known for spending a great deal of money, if any on sick dogs. Then after you had him for two weeks he went down hill.  I would suspect something else from my experiences

So many of the Vets here in the states love to call EPI on a dog when it is really something else.  Two reasons one they make a lot of money from that diagnosis and the other they do  not have to look further and do the work for another cause.    In over 30 years I have never seen a true EPI dog (not saying there are none)  the few that I have been involved with that were supposed to have were made healthy by treating for something else.  

The longer that one waits the longer to heal them.  Just some food for thought

 

My post is not for a debate but rather informative IF anyone is planning to purchase a dog from that area, it could be from the same seller. IF that said purchaser wishes to find out who I purchased from, I am more than willing to provide that information on a private basis for informative consumer information. In regard to your suspicion, as I mentioned or maybe was not clear the dog was very thin already when I got him. We attributed the weight to his possible recent travels, stress, etc. What status he had in Bulgaria I'm uncertain however his published pedigree looked legit and promising. We took him to the vet for his/OUR initial checkup with our Vet who I personally have had ( 3 previous GSD including police K9) over the last 20 years so my trust in his judgment and experience as well as my own is without question. We were initially concerned on his weight AND demeanor sleeping and tired, as well as constant color of stool and diarrhea. We tried a few well known meds, different food, as well blood work. All came back negative yet after additional weeks he did not improve rather slightly got worse. Extensive research pointed to every symptom of EPI, which led to returning for follow up visit and specific blood work for this. A week later it was confirmed he was at negative levels and in fact had the disease. On his meds and Raw feeding his levels have improved, however the huge difference is his demeanor. He is ALL PUPPY, energetic playful, happy which is a blessing to my wife and I. Nonetheless, this is a hereditary disease and not necessarily entire litter will attain it. This is just an informative FYI precautionary to those IF they plan on buying from the area I mentioned.

Western Rider, I've seen more true EPI-affected GSDs than I wish I had, so there is no doubt that it IS 'out there' in the lines, and in my experience it's the polar opposite--vets are reluctant to truly consider EPI until there's nothing else left that it could be, in part due to the lack of a good and really definitive test to diagnose the condition.

And yes, I have seen affected dogs go downhill in two weeks simply because the seller had the dog on supplemental enzymes which abruptly stopped when the new owners receive the dog and weren't told that he needed that supplementation. In this instance, the seller sure sounds like a dog flipper, picking up cheap dogs in the less affluent European countries, and then reselling them as quickly as possible at a significant price increase.

In all fairness, however, the OP should know that because we still don't have the gene or genes responsible for the condition identified, and because it does not appear to involve a simple recessive mode of heretibility, it is extremely easy for even the best, most diligent and conscientious breeders to unknowingly produce a pup that will go on the develop EPI, SIBO or a related condition, presuming that both parents aren't displaying any signs of the problem, and there weren't any known full or half siblings that had developed any of them, either.

Like hip and elbow dysplasia, it's a 'luck of the draw' sort of thing, even after the breeder tries everything known to science to stack the deck in the favor of the pups to be born. It's a risk one takes when one chooses to have GSDs in their lives.

Western Rider I had an EPI dog not something I would ever want to deal with again She had a TLI of .2 Not sure What you are talking about there are EPI dogs for sure. She later got a pancreatic insoloma tumor on her pancrease and subsequently died due to the treatment of Pred blowing out her stomach :( She lasted until she was 10 years old.

I agree Hexe in this case it was luck of the draw I believe this breeder did not intentionally breed sick / affected dogs She is a reputable breeder Just sucked that I got one with it.

Lyn

I'm quite sure there are "true" EPI cases, just as I have also seen cases like Western Rider is saying- where it's not really EPI at all, but another problem (basically there are many many causes of malabsorption) that is dubbed EPI and the cause is never searched for, let alone found. People think if they get better on enzymes, then it was EPI. I have seen a dog with chronic giardia (mass kennel living) diagnosed with EPI, then magically get better when the giardia was treated properly.

Not saying mistakes are not made but there is a test for EPI so why wouldn't people do it?

Lyn

My female Fiest has EPI. She was diagnosed at 2.5 years old(tested thru the University of Texas) good quality enzymes about 60.00 dollars a month and a once a month Vitamin B shot. Not hundreds of thousands of dollars and about 250.00 for the tests and university confirmation. She is a Sch 3 and AWD 1 workng on her 2. EPI isn,t a death sentence and easily handled. There are 2 things that are confirmed about EPI #1 yes it is hereditary(to the best of there current knowledge) also can be brought on by trauma (sickness that stress organs). If your not planning on using your puppy as a breeding dog then she should be just fine for your pleasure or work. EPI can come from parentage that shows no outward sign of EPI. There is no genetic test as of yet that can predict EPI but there is one that can confirm it,s diagnosis.

Fiest is 8 years old and going strong.

Good luck finding the broker. What was his name?

Again, to be fair, Bob, not all EPI-affected dogs are as lucky as Feist--I do know of those dogs for whom no amount of enzyme supplementation, raw feeding, supplemental B12 and all manner of ensuring that the animal and their environment were kept free of parasites, only to see the dog continue to deteriorate. Sometimes it's a case of it not being diagnosed quickly enough, and there's already been collateral damage to other organ functions; in other instances, it's identified right off, the dog's owners and vets do everything correctly, and yet the dog's system simply doesn't respond quickly enough to the support to permit adequate absorption of nutrients; in the latter situation, it quickly becomes a question of whether to administer the dog's nutrition completely through an IV, potentially for the rest of its life, or deciding it's kinder to let them leave this dimension.

But yes, most cases of EPI CAN be managed, and yes, I've also seen those dogs where an EPI diagnosis was hung on them when all that was needed was an improvement of management of the dog's food intake and quality, the health of it's GI tract, and the bio-security of the environment where the dog is living...so EPI was diagnosed incorrectly in those animals.

LynOD, like most tests, the test presently in use to assess for EPI has it's strengths and weaknesses, and unfortunately it very often will reflect a low normal result for dogs that to the eye are clearly NOT able to utilize the nutrition in their feed rations. It's also not a test that's run by all labs--for example, it's not offered at Michigan State U's laboratory; add to this the fact that it runs about $100 or so, and requires the dog to have been fasted for 12 hours prior to sample collection, and you have a perfect scenario for a vet being reluctant to press the client to do more testing, and for a client to be resistant to yet another visit and another test and more fees...so looking for alternative causes of a dog's apparent failure to put on weight, or his unrelenting cow-pie-like stools, has its appeal for both parties.

My dog would have died if not diagnosed it was that severe. She lost about 10 lbs in a week when the EPI kicked in at 17 mos of age. I am convinced this dog was immune compromised perhaps from early vaccination? She had a reaction to her first puppy shot which was given at only 7 weeks by the breeder. But this dog also had Pannus , hip dysplasia and lumbar sacrel disease. Wondering if some of the skeletal issues were a result of her not being able to get proper nutrition from her food. It was diagnosed quickly by my vet and she was treated throughout her life with a raw diet and enzymes. Lived to be 10 but due to all of her other health issues she had to be retired from work at a young age 4 1/2. I had to find things for her to do that didn't involve any jumping . So she swam, ( which still sometimes aggrevated her back). Nose work etc.. She was a working dog who wanted to work but her body wouldn't let her. She was a good girl. Today is her birthday was would have been 13. I miss her:(

Lyn