What will an IPO/Schutzund dog if the Sleeve is taken out of the picture? - Page 4

Thanks Bubba. This is what motivated  my initial question.

I once saw a very powerfully built dark sable male( GSD)  IPO dog creating a literal earthquake immediately before the release for a long bite ( could have sworn he was the ral deal ). He thuinders down the straightaway and hits the sleeve so hard the decoy is almost thrown off his feet . The decoy releases the sleeve, and the dogs runs off with the sleeve with no focus on the decoy. To me it looked pretty much pus....y. 

I would not say all IPO dogs are weak or unwilling to fight .. they are taught a different set of rules for biting a sleeve in IPO versus biting a real person trying to hurt them in police work.  Many police trainers do not want an IPO III dog for police work as often the dog must unlearn some IPO rules of the game.  Dogs are smart and many know the difference between play (IPO) and real life and death for the dog when confronting an armed or dangerous human willing to kill them.  Some police dogs are only taught that they must attack and get control of the human which is also dangerous if the dog is improperly handled and controled.  If every human is seen as a threat by the dog then innocents can be harmed without proper controls.  A five year old child should not be getting mauled by a police dog. 

Bubba, your statement is making generalizations, but not reality.
There are a lot of dogs that only care about the sleeve, but that´s a result of training, not of temperament, and doesn´t change the character of any dog.

Over here a lot of "sports people" not only develop the prey drive of their dogs, but also develop the defense and agression of their dogs during training.
Always depends on the owner and on the helper ( not talking about the dog at this point ), because it´s always better to have a broad basis than only prey...

and out of my experience it´s no big deal to teach a stable, prey oriented adult dog to bite "for real" - it´s training. You just need a good helper.

On the other hand all of my dogs participated successful in SchH and IPO, and I tend to train using their agression, not their prey drive at the beginning of the road. They want to bite the helper, not the sleeve, later on they learn by themselves that it´s fun to "win" a prey - just for their own satisfaction.

That´s not common practise, but works well for me and my dogs.

It´s nonsense to belittle "dog sport" as a whole - it´s always about the dog, the owner, and the helper = training combined with genetics.

It´s not about "sleeve or not" - it´s about trainability, drives, nerves, character - everything else depends on training.

ALL training, be it a sport, IPO, SVV, KNPV, NVBK, FR, Mondio and ALL police dog training require equipment to be worn by a helper, "suspect" to take bites of said dogs. What creates " equipment consciousness" is the constant need for the dog to bite that equipment since there are no volunteers to work a dog without protection, end of. Dogs are creatures of habit, consistency+repetition=habit, hence you have dogs who target arm and leg sleeves and even dogs that are worked on a suit will target a body part they were trained to bite on initially.

Most of you will be very surprised to learn that police dogs are hugely equipment oriented as well, there is no way around that, you cannot train a dog without them. Just the presence of a suit or sleeve or even a muzzle will make a dog who knows what they are excited. A dog's willingness to bite a human, sans anything on is not based on training, its based on genetic ability and desire to fight with one and you will never know if your IPO or your police dog will actually engage a human in a shirt and shorts until it actually happens, everything else is pure speculation and bullshit.

On another note, someone should rename these threads with, "whose dick is bigger".

how i know my dog will bite the man is when he spits out the sleeve with no prompt from me and goes 100% back on the man with no equipment i allow him to go pass the sleeve .then i know he is on the man and not the equipment after that the test is when shit happens but im confidence in my dogs

Thank you, HD!

"Most of you will be very surprised to learn that police dogs are hugely equipment oriented as well, there is no way around that, you cannot train a dog without them. Just the presence of a suit or sleeve or even a muzzle will make a dog who knows what they are excited. A dog's willingness to bite a human, sans anything on is not based on training, its based on genetic ability and desire to fight with one and you will never know if your IPO or your police dog will actually engage a human in a shirt and shorts until it actually happens, everything else is pure speculation and bullshit."

Your statement is a perfect example of someone who actually trains dogs instead of just looking at videos and talking about it on the internet!

All my dogs started from puppies are exposed to the helper with no equipment but street cloths and them selfs. The puppies and young dogs are all trained that the man is the focus not his equipment. All dogs can be trained this way or atleast started and some will do well others not as well. Becauase a dog takes the sleeve and runs with it doesnt mean by any means that they won,t engage on a man. It depends on the dog. IPO is a sport it isn,t a breed worthyness test that is long gone. IPO is a International sport where as in my opinion Schutzhund is the training and raisng of the breed. Many Schutzhund dogs are work with bite suits, hidden sleeves off the trial field in dark buildings and strange places to expose them to a larger picture of work this just makes good sense and a much more well rounded dog. We do alot of work in the blind with no sleeve. alot with just agitation from the man(helper) with bare hands and legs. Even muzzle work can and should be done with the dogs to expose them to the situation. It all comes down to how your dog was trained and bred. And i agree with the above post it,s all talk until the need arises to prove the point. 

Thanks for all the educated responses on the subject asked about, and Im happy to have learned this much. Can anyone tell me of a breeder in USA ( but you can include Canada and Europe as well ) who produces working GSD's that  can readily function as dual purpose dogs ( LE/PPD/IPO) ? I would be happy for expertise again in this regard.

go to any top producing sport dog kennel, that's where all the real dogs come from, and ask the breeder to select a suitable puppy and take a gamble - like everybody else does.

if you want a "working GSD's that  can readily function as dual purpose dogs ( LE/PPD/IPO)" then by a finished adult dog -  like everyone else does.

I have seen some nice sport type dogs turn into pretty darn good LE dogs, some good LE dogs do pretty good job at sport, sporty dogs do shitty job at anything else and really tough LE type dogs suck at sport...and everything else in between.