Breeding a Black to a White GSD .. What is Possible?? - Page 1

I got a call from a local GSD owner and breeder of White GSD's.  Wanted to breed his white female to a black or bi-color stud to add color and drives to his white.  I was at a loss to tell him what to expect and I passed him along to someone in his home town who might help him.  Any experiences with this type of breeding would be appreciated as I had not a clue what was going to happen with his white and my solid black Czech male.  Questions would be what lines would work best .. ie more of a show line type dog and would line bred studs be more dangerous as the whites are likely more inbred due to their numbers and the needed inbreeding required to get to white.  Any other dangers or benefits of breeding white to normal GSD colors or even non-standard such as livers or blues??  I am familiar with normal GSD color genetics but I have mostly blacks and bi-colors to it is not hard to predict what I will get.  Just never dealt with whites and I don't know their weaknesses that need to be addressed in an out cross away from white.

You'll get pandas! 

No, seriously, the white gene is a masking gene, and works independently from the other colour genes. You can have a dog that's genetically a black and tan, sable, or even a black, and it will appear white because the double recessive white gene masks the true color. Sometimes the masking is incomplete, and the dog will be off-white (buff).

The only thing that will happen with this cross is he will stand a chance of getting a black pup in some of his litters, if the parents both carry the black gene. It will not affect the regular color genetics that produce black, sable and black and tan.

I was not aware that white shepherds were any more inbred than other kinds of sheperds. If that's true, he will refresh his gene pool with this outcross.

Don't want to comment on the blue and liver question, but I think you'd better put your flameproof armour on.

You can find info on the blue and live genetics here: http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/

I knew about the masking gene but I wanted to hear from someone who had done it .. the masking gene is an autosomal recessive gene I believe.  I had also heard that two whites will sometimes produce a regular colored puppy or a lightly color coated puppy.  Most of the genetic rules for the GSD seem to be guidelines more than hard and fast rules as there is more that we don't know about genetics than we know at this point whether it be humans or GSD.  Not sure if penetrance ( what geneticist say when the rules get broken ) is a factor in the white or masking gene(s).  Personally I would rather stay away from whites, livers, blues, but for those who like them "more power to you" and I don't want to hinder your pursuit of happiness.  Better a white GSD than a Poodle.

How would one register such offspring?
What standards would apply?
The two breeds may look similar but they are separate, and what does color have to do with improving a Swiss Shepherd?


What is possible is called a mutt, some mutts make great dogs, but I don't think there is a registry for mutts.



 

Livers and blues have nothing to do with the question at hand, that I see. You're not going to get diluted pups unless both parents carry the dilution gene. You could breed a blue dog to a dark sable and not get any blue pups at all, for example.  Black also masks the color underneath- hence we see a lot of blacks with "bleeding." I guess my question to him would be that if his bitch is that lacking in drive and he doesn't like her color...why is he breeding her at all? I know that's not that helpful...but honestly, that's what I'd ask someone who called me and said that. If he's not happy with what he has, buy a proper breeding bitch and improve his stock. 

The Swiss Shepherd was developed from the White German Shepherd, many imported into Europe from the US and Canada since the early 80's.  They are now separately registered, but there are still registered White German Shepherds in the US/Canada and elsewhere in the world.   As others have mentioned I'd ask WHY the person wants to do such a breeding, and how much experience they have with working line dogs, what the temperament of the White female is, and if she's a dog who would stand up to the pressure of working.  Some whites can, some can't like any group of Shepherds (IE the American show lines)  To do the breeding ONLY as a curiosity to see what color they might get should raise a few eyebrows and a lot of questions.   Without knowing what colors the white and the black carry as recessive genes there's no way of knowing.  However the resulting litter would carry the white masking gene, as well as the recessive black gene whatever color they might look like.  In other words it's a question that can't be answered. 
    I have seen whites who did very well as working dogs, and police dogs, guide dogs etc...  If someone wants to out cross they need to jot down what traits they are looking for, or looking to strengthen... and be sure that both dogs have something to offer.  (Certainly not JUST color)

Color wise, it would depend on what the white is masking.  Sable, black & tan and solid black are all possible, if both parents carry for dilute, then blue/live would be possible.  Regalwise (a well known White GSD breeder/exhibitor) did a similar breeding, a black dog to a white bitch...this is a bitch from that litter: http://www.regalwise.com/females/true.html

And another of a bitch resulting from a breeding of a WL sable dog and a white bitch. http://www.regalwise.com/females/robin.html

I know of some people that bred a solid black with no white in the background,
to a solid white with no black in the background and got black & tans that were
very washed out in pigment.

Thanks mirasmom, olga, and windwalker.  I am not going to participate in this mating scheme but I was at a loss to predict what outcomes were possible and how a black Czech Orry (IT) son would contribute to a white.

About 20 years ago I breed my solid black female to my solid white male. I got bicolors, and black and tans. One of those dogs went on to be the drug dog in monongalia co. WV. they were great muts.
keith