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by mrdarcy on 25 October 2013 - 06:10
Posting from duplicate thread now deleted
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What can all of you tell me about by trixx on 24 October 2013 - 18:10 |
 trixxPosts: 959 Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 02:20 am |
| well i had a male with a small amount of roach and he turned out fine , but there are different levels of roach, but from what i know i dont think there are any real problems with roach backs, as far as i know the whole reason for the roach years ago was to improve on the hips, did it work? i really dont know. | |
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What can all of you tell me about by SitasMom on 24 October 2013 - 18:10 |
SitasMom Posts: 7208 Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 01:33 am |
  Is your dog like this? |
by kitkat3478 on 25 October 2013 - 17:10
I love longcoats, in my own personal opinion- just being roachback in, and of itself IS a reason NOT. To breed him.
And the fact that you yourself are here asking about the roachback insinuates you have a little 'dislike/issue' also.
There is nothing to be gained by producing more of these type German Shepherds.
Plesae, just love your dog for who he is, but don't pass that trait on.
I would be very interested in seeing a pic of your dog.
And the fact that you yourself are here asking about the roachback insinuates you have a little 'dislike/issue' also.
There is nothing to be gained by producing more of these type German Shepherds.
Plesae, just love your dog for who he is, but don't pass that trait on.
I would be very interested in seeing a pic of your dog.
by GSDGenetics on 01 November 2013 - 23:11
The roach back got its start in the late 70's & early 80s when the Martin brothers controlled the SV because in the German conformation ring dogs are gaited for hours and when they tired, would sag their toplines which made them look weak backed. The dog with a roached back cannot sag its topline no matter how tired it is. The roached back is not correct but it persists as the style in the German conformation ring and as long as that's what wins, that's what will continue to be bred and perpetuated for the German show ring.
by Hundmutter on 02 November 2013 - 05:11
'HOURS' is a bit of an exageration, Genetics.
It is true that German, and most European, Conformation
Judging requires long gaiting sessions, to assess movement
as well as stamina. This often seems to be seen as unusual
by those of a North American persuasion, where the idea that
dogs should be taken round a ring more than twice is hard to
swallow [lol]. However, what you have said about the direction
the topline has taken over past decades is only partly true, and
appears to have its origins in the "Anti Martins" camp - ' Other
viewpoints on these two brothers' work in, and value to, the Breed
are available '.
You only have to study those old photographs so kindly provided
on the right hand side of this website's front page to see that the
variation between 'curved up' and 'dippy' toplines existed long ago.
Yes, in some cases even during the early part of the 20th Century,
while dogs like those of the Kriminalpolize were still thin and tall and
square ! Both in all-European breeding, and in dogs produced in the US.
Long before the 70s and the Martin brothers' influence - although, yes, they
used lines with a 'raised' back for their preferred breeding and that meant
it got perpetuated more. But that was part of a wider process because
they looked for other qualities those dogs possessed, over those which
were provided by other 'types'. Leg length; temperament; balance etc.
Whatever. Since there has never been proof of a medical construction
problem, SPECIFIC TO ONLY THOSE DOGS OF THE BREED WHO HAVE
RAISED/CURVED TOPLINES, and since it is largely a matter of aesthetic
appreciation, can we please not take the OP down that ol' historical interpretation
track ? I have seen European show dogs run almost into the ground by some
judges over the years, and while I have therefore seen examples of exhausted dogs,
I don't actually recall seeing their toplines 'sag' in the way you have described.
A 'soft' back is a Soft Back, and has never had a respectable place in conformation,
per the Standard ...no more than does a TRUE 'roach' (which is actually a rise of the
spine over the loin, not an upward curve of the whole topline, or of the portion of that
which is the 'Back' [as distinct from wither and croup].)
MOST dogs with a raised backline can be made to look ridiculous
with 'hinges' etc when they are poorly 'stood' for inspection or photography by
inept handlers, they do not retain that look when walking around normally. Have
a look at some Seiger videos from Germany, the 'roaches', 'carps' and 'hinges'
virtually disappear when dogs are walking or gaiting. Not to say that exageration
of these features isn't perpetuated by poor breeding, but it really isn't the death-knell
some see it as.
It is true that German, and most European, Conformation
Judging requires long gaiting sessions, to assess movement
as well as stamina. This often seems to be seen as unusual
by those of a North American persuasion, where the idea that
dogs should be taken round a ring more than twice is hard to
swallow [lol]. However, what you have said about the direction
the topline has taken over past decades is only partly true, and
appears to have its origins in the "Anti Martins" camp - ' Other
viewpoints on these two brothers' work in, and value to, the Breed
are available '.
You only have to study those old photographs so kindly provided
on the right hand side of this website's front page to see that the
variation between 'curved up' and 'dippy' toplines existed long ago.
Yes, in some cases even during the early part of the 20th Century,
while dogs like those of the Kriminalpolize were still thin and tall and
square ! Both in all-European breeding, and in dogs produced in the US.
Long before the 70s and the Martin brothers' influence - although, yes, they
used lines with a 'raised' back for their preferred breeding and that meant
it got perpetuated more. But that was part of a wider process because
they looked for other qualities those dogs possessed, over those which
were provided by other 'types'. Leg length; temperament; balance etc.
Whatever. Since there has never been proof of a medical construction
problem, SPECIFIC TO ONLY THOSE DOGS OF THE BREED WHO HAVE
RAISED/CURVED TOPLINES, and since it is largely a matter of aesthetic
appreciation, can we please not take the OP down that ol' historical interpretation
track ? I have seen European show dogs run almost into the ground by some
judges over the years, and while I have therefore seen examples of exhausted dogs,
I don't actually recall seeing their toplines 'sag' in the way you have described.
A 'soft' back is a Soft Back, and has never had a respectable place in conformation,
per the Standard ...no more than does a TRUE 'roach' (which is actually a rise of the
spine over the loin, not an upward curve of the whole topline, or of the portion of that
which is the 'Back' [as distinct from wither and croup].)
MOST dogs with a raised backline can be made to look ridiculous
with 'hinges' etc when they are poorly 'stood' for inspection or photography by
inept handlers, they do not retain that look when walking around normally. Have
a look at some Seiger videos from Germany, the 'roaches', 'carps' and 'hinges'
virtually disappear when dogs are walking or gaiting. Not to say that exageration
of these features isn't perpetuated by poor breeding, but it really isn't the death-knell
some see it as.
by Blitzen on 02 November 2013 - 08:11
Both the FCI and the AKC breed standard call for straight backlines. Roaches and weak toplines are considered faults.
The FCI standard:
The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, ,firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad, short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.
The AKC standard:
Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness.
You need to see the dog standing naturally in order to evaluate the topline.
The FCI standard:
The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, ,firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad, short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.
The AKC standard:
Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness.
You need to see the dog standing naturally in order to evaluate the topline.
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