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by CelticGlory on 29 August 2013 - 15:08
No matter what the breeder does to ensure the best home possible for the puppies that have faults (under bite, overbite, poor conformation, etc.), their are still people who will fool the breeders who mean well and bred the dog anyway, these types of people will fall off the radar and prop up with puppies from an unknown female and some dog from a well known breeder. I have seen this happen as I'm sure all of you have too. I was watching people's court and here in FL, according to the judge; because of the lemon laws a breeder cannot 1. Ask for the puppy back for a replacement puppy or for the person to get cash back because of a faulty or sick puppy! 2. The contracts are not legal! This is what Judge Milian, stated in a case that dealt with a sick puppy. She said that it is considered emotional blackmail. For those who will say this has no point to this thread, it in fact does because breeder's cannot enforce their contracts in some states like FL, how would it be possible to breed out the crappy dogs if this is the case? Basically, they would be able to do whatever they want to with the dog as soon as they have them! So given them away for free would be just as worse!
The only way I could see this happening is for breeders to either 1. Spay/Neuter their puppies that go to companion/pet only homes before the people get them, or 2. Offer a deal they couldn't refuse, give them money back for things like health testing, showing, sport competitions, spay/neutering for the value of what they paid (with proof). I see some breeders who do this in various breeds.
Out-crossing wouldn't be possible only because that would introduce that breed's health problems and would introduce different color and, height/weight, coat types within the breed which would be hard to breed back out. Max v. Stephanitz, tried that with the merle sheepdogs, but for some reason he did not like the color and bred them back out and kept them out (whether it was because of the the color itself or because of health issues I don't know; which can be found in the merle thread on here).
The only way I could see this happening is for breeders to either 1. Spay/Neuter their puppies that go to companion/pet only homes before the people get them, or 2. Offer a deal they couldn't refuse, give them money back for things like health testing, showing, sport competitions, spay/neutering for the value of what they paid (with proof). I see some breeders who do this in various breeds.
Out-crossing wouldn't be possible only because that would introduce that breed's health problems and would introduce different color and, height/weight, coat types within the breed which would be hard to breed back out. Max v. Stephanitz, tried that with the merle sheepdogs, but for some reason he did not like the color and bred them back out and kept them out (whether it was because of the the color itself or because of health issues I don't know; which can be found in the merle thread on here).
by kyto on 29 August 2013 - 16:08
celtic you really get it, selecting on overbite,underbite, poor confirmation is absolutly necessary to regain the lost working abillity's of the GSD,
i'm a mali guy so i have to thank you, people like you made it so easy for malinois to become the number1 working dog all over the world
oh by the way outcrosses were made and they resulted in malinois whit an extra vertibra, bad hips and elbows so yes whit a breed as healthy as the GSD keep out the health part from other breeds before the GSD develops any health issues
i'm a mali guy so i have to thank you, people like you made it so easy for malinois to become the number1 working dog all over the world
oh by the way outcrosses were made and they resulted in malinois whit an extra vertibra, bad hips and elbows so yes whit a breed as healthy as the GSD keep out the health part from other breeds before the GSD develops any health issues
by CelticGlory on 29 August 2013 - 16:08
Kyto, what do you mean? I never said to breed dog's with health issues, I said that I have seen cases of **puppy buyers** who purchased puppies from **good** breeders who only did so regardless of faults (which includes health!) to breed dogs for profit!! However, because of the puppy lemon laws contracts are not legally binding, this is straight from a judges mouth! So I never said its okay for these type of dogs to be bred! I was stating what I have seen of those types of puppies (not all of them, but you do see them) going to these types of people who would breed them anyway regardless of contracts with the breeder. I know a person who had gotten a dog from a very good breeder, the puppy had a over bite, but the person still wanted to breed the dog *someday*, I have also seen some websites of unknown female dogs with dogs that came from very good breeders. So my statement was in reference to some of the other comments, which in short meant why not try to figure out the issues of contracts and these type of puppies that are culled first? Before considering out-crossing to other breeds in reference to the OP. I also offered two solutions that would work to stop people who just want to breed for money and use very good breeder's names for the almighty $$. This happens in many breeds, not just the GSDs.
I have, like other's seen bad tempered GSDs (and other breeds), one day about two years ago I was walking home from the store; I had come across this house, the fence line was all the way back from the sidewalk. Out of the corner of my eye I had seen a GSD, he was watching me, and for no reason at all he starting barking, snarling, and dripping drool from the mouth. Just to make sure I was safe I ran past the house, the fence wasn't that high up either, I have come across dogs in yards before that didn't act like that dog did. Never would I have a dog like that outside where children walk to and from school with such a short fence. I was still shaking when I got home too. I'm usually not scared of dogs, but some dogs just get your instincts to kick in and I know the dog would have jumped that fence. I could still hear him barking and no one came out of the house either.
I'm just saying who knows where that dog came from? Whether he was bred from two decent parents from a good breeder or came from a byb who got dogs from a very good breeder? When he started to act up, I did look at him to see what his problem was, he was a very nice rich dark red/black color, not typical for this neighborhood. Most here are black/tan.
I have, like other's seen bad tempered GSDs (and other breeds), one day about two years ago I was walking home from the store; I had come across this house, the fence line was all the way back from the sidewalk. Out of the corner of my eye I had seen a GSD, he was watching me, and for no reason at all he starting barking, snarling, and dripping drool from the mouth. Just to make sure I was safe I ran past the house, the fence wasn't that high up either, I have come across dogs in yards before that didn't act like that dog did. Never would I have a dog like that outside where children walk to and from school with such a short fence. I was still shaking when I got home too. I'm usually not scared of dogs, but some dogs just get your instincts to kick in and I know the dog would have jumped that fence. I could still hear him barking and no one came out of the house either.
I'm just saying who knows where that dog came from? Whether he was bred from two decent parents from a good breeder or came from a byb who got dogs from a very good breeder? When he started to act up, I did look at him to see what his problem was, he was a very nice rich dark red/black color, not typical for this neighborhood. Most here are black/tan.
by Blitzen on 29 August 2013 - 16:08
If you feel as if you can't trust pet buyers to honor non breeding/neutering contracts, the solution is simple - find a local vet who will do tubal ligations and vasectomies on the puppies before they go to their new homes and build the cost into the price of the dog if you think that's necessary. The females will still come into season and the males will still develop male characterics so the too young to neuter notion doesn't apply.
http://yesbiscuit.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/discussion-tubal-ligations-and-vasectomies-on-puppies/
http://yesbiscuit.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/discussion-tubal-ligations-and-vasectomies-on-puppies/
by CelticGlory on 29 August 2013 - 17:08
I'm not a breeder, but a puppy buyer who has seen it and I'm getting sick and tired of it. I don't like people who try and scam the good breeders who try to do everything right, but they are still scammed by their buyers. It gives those of us who would follow the contract to the T, a bad name. I prefer the spay/neuter if you not going to work or show the dog and don't plan on breeding philosophy. Someday, after learning what I could (getting experience) I had wanted to get into showing, but it is no longer in my future. I do however, prefer that if I don't get my puppy/dog from the shelter, I at least get them from a good breeder. That court case had made me confused on how contracts couldn't be legal, because we know that when you sue; a judge expects an agreement/contract between buyer and seller, but we have a judge saying that asking for the puppy back (on the breeder's end) is not legal? Really? What would a person like that do? How would a breeder determine that after the fact the buyer actually lied and plans on breeding that dog with the mouth issue, or the bad hips, or the puppy that turned out to be deaf?
ETA: I do prefer the *wait to least 18-24 months to spay/neuter* depending on the dog and the person who was getting that puppy. I prefer males in this case, because I know, myself; I would not be able to handle an intact female).
ETA: I do prefer the *wait to least 18-24 months to spay/neuter* depending on the dog and the person who was getting that puppy. I prefer males in this case, because I know, myself; I would not be able to handle an intact female).
by jemi on 29 August 2013 - 20:08
Hired Dog...sorry, don't want to hijack this thread, just a question...which is more serious NVBK or KNPV dogs in general? Considering they are registered malinois. I see one from NVBK lines in KNPV program, I think it is Nierlenders Endor. Very serious dog.
by kyto on 30 August 2013 - 04:08
you can still find very serious mali's in diffrent programs, as in all programs there's a lot of crappy one's to, if a breeder starts focus on one sports he will get into problems
no sporting program tests the dog like in the past belgian ring did, all sports have become much easier than they once were and old style trainning methods as used by the greatest ring sporters ever like robert de mits and lucien riviere,luc vansteenbrugge all of them owners of some legendary dogs aren't exepted anymore
and still nobody wonders why those champion dog's produced more good offspring than those of today compared to the crappy ones
trainning methods they used weren't very animal friendly and that's an understatement but in those day's it was normal, but one thing about that old style of dog trainning was that the onces who made it true trainning and on a competitionfield were dog's that could handle any kind of pressure from everyone, sinds thosedogs won all competitions many hobby breeders used them as studs,just like today you see a lot of people running towards the worldchampion to get a studthey just got a whole lot less crap
in those day's people from NVBK,KKUSH,KNPV,IPO and even french ring didn't care about what sport the dog was into old breeders heard about a dog went out to see him on a couple of trainnings and if they liked him used him as a stud or asked the owner to give them a call when a litter was born so they could go select a female for future breedings
the diffrence is in those day's trainning methods/diffrent competition rules and exercises assured the best dog would come out
these day's no sport guarantee's you anything anymore and to many dog's who look serious are made dog's, most really serious dog's come miles behind them in results and aren't used half the times in breeding as the "sportdogs"
most top ringsporters these day's select easier trainneble dogs just because of the out and the amount of points they can loose on every grip, i know what they did before every competition to dick1, dick2,G'bibber,gaillard du boscaille etc just to get them to out on the competion some dogs got a final "reminder" 5min before they entered the field
today people focus to much on hard,fast entry's but those are completly trainneble talk to helpers asked them to show their arms,legs after working the dog that got your interest, if the grips are calm,full and he's arm is not completly purple and blue true a belgian ring suit you know for sure he's not a old-style mali, this could be a first hint if you go looking for a stud be carefull nervous schitty grips will turn a helpers arm blue to as will a mondio-french ring suit
getting 1 good litter out of 5matings isn't a good ratio!!! altough it's difficult to follow the number of matings on every stud but people just don't seem to get it
one of the best producing males in recent history of the NVBK the owner had to change he's name because nobody in NVBK would use the dog as a stud because he was fci bred out of an ipo dog,
here lies a big treath to the working mali, don't focus on sports, focus on the working breed in general and as all great breeders once did get out more and go see diffrent dogs in diffrent sports
i think many breeders would look very surpriced if they would see how their offspring/our other dog's from that bloodline are doeing in other sports than their own
no sporting program tests the dog like in the past belgian ring did, all sports have become much easier than they once were and old style trainning methods as used by the greatest ring sporters ever like robert de mits and lucien riviere,luc vansteenbrugge all of them owners of some legendary dogs aren't exepted anymore
and still nobody wonders why those champion dog's produced more good offspring than those of today compared to the crappy ones
trainning methods they used weren't very animal friendly and that's an understatement but in those day's it was normal, but one thing about that old style of dog trainning was that the onces who made it true trainning and on a competitionfield were dog's that could handle any kind of pressure from everyone, sinds thosedogs won all competitions many hobby breeders used them as studs,just like today you see a lot of people running towards the worldchampion to get a studthey just got a whole lot less crap
in those day's people from NVBK,KKUSH,KNPV,IPO and even french ring didn't care about what sport the dog was into old breeders heard about a dog went out to see him on a couple of trainnings and if they liked him used him as a stud or asked the owner to give them a call when a litter was born so they could go select a female for future breedings
the diffrence is in those day's trainning methods/diffrent competition rules and exercises assured the best dog would come out
these day's no sport guarantee's you anything anymore and to many dog's who look serious are made dog's, most really serious dog's come miles behind them in results and aren't used half the times in breeding as the "sportdogs"
most top ringsporters these day's select easier trainneble dogs just because of the out and the amount of points they can loose on every grip, i know what they did before every competition to dick1, dick2,G'bibber,gaillard du boscaille etc just to get them to out on the competion some dogs got a final "reminder" 5min before they entered the field
today people focus to much on hard,fast entry's but those are completly trainneble talk to helpers asked them to show their arms,legs after working the dog that got your interest, if the grips are calm,full and he's arm is not completly purple and blue true a belgian ring suit you know for sure he's not a old-style mali, this could be a first hint if you go looking for a stud be carefull nervous schitty grips will turn a helpers arm blue to as will a mondio-french ring suit
getting 1 good litter out of 5matings isn't a good ratio!!! altough it's difficult to follow the number of matings on every stud but people just don't seem to get it
one of the best producing males in recent history of the NVBK the owner had to change he's name because nobody in NVBK would use the dog as a stud because he was fci bred out of an ipo dog,
here lies a big treath to the working mali, don't focus on sports, focus on the working breed in general and as all great breeders once did get out more and go see diffrent dogs in diffrent sports
i think many breeders would look very surpriced if they would see how their offspring/our other dog's from that bloodline are doeing in other sports than their own
by Gustav on 30 August 2013 - 07:08
Preach brother preach!.....unfortunately it will fall mainly on deaf ears, because many think these dogs were mythical, and do not understand that the slick non stressful training of today is not in the interest of working dogs. Points and pictures are probably the two biggest reasons people go to a stud they haven't seen. And the beat goes on!
by kyto on 30 August 2013 - 08:08
so strange because all people have to do to see the proof is looking up those dogs and their offspring, and realize that in those day's 50+ matings was very exeptional for a stud, almost no international breedings,frozen semen wasn't possible, these day's champion studs in ipo,mondio,french ring, belgium ring rarely get less than 100-250 studs some even a lot more than these numbers
just do some math about it but watch out you could get a pretty big schok if you do
people still run towards a champion to get a stud, just as they did before, the only diffrence is the type of dog that becomes a champion these day's is the opposite of the type of dog that became a champion in those day's
easier competions and changed trainning methods are the only diffrence, it's just sad that even here in belgium, as in FCI and NVBK the never ending quest for higher trial points is badly effecting the future of the malinois
just do some math about it but watch out you could get a pretty big schok if you do
people still run towards a champion to get a stud, just as they did before, the only diffrence is the type of dog that becomes a champion these day's is the opposite of the type of dog that became a champion in those day's
easier competions and changed trainning methods are the only diffrence, it's just sad that even here in belgium, as in FCI and NVBK the never ending quest for higher trial points is badly effecting the future of the malinois
by Hired Dog on 30 August 2013 - 13:08
Jemi...they are NOT registered Malinois and yes, Endor is a very serious dog, but, he comes out of very serious dogs as well and has a brother names Egbert who is even more serious.
The KNPV program is mistakenly thought of a "sport", its not. Its a training program that is designed to produce dogs worthy of transferring that training to the street and work as police dogs. It is over seen by the Dutch police and 98% of all dogs that get a PH I are sold to police or military or security agencies.
I find the protection part of the KNPV very exciting, those dogs are probably the hardest hitting dogs anywhere, but, the helper is, for the most part, a punching bag.
I also love the article search as well as the search in the woods for both the helper and the object and I think they have the best "transport" style out of any other dog related training disciplines.
The NVBK was and still is the measuring stick if you will of all dogs. I agree with Kyto about the change in training techniques that has resulted in dogs becoming softer then in the old days, but, there are still dogs in that program that are better then most.
I dont have the inclination to type for ever, nor do I like to argue my opinion, so, please take a look at dogs like Bart Bello's Zodt and Lopez's A'Tim and Nierlelander's Egbert, I assure you that you will find them very interesting.
The KNPV program is mistakenly thought of a "sport", its not. Its a training program that is designed to produce dogs worthy of transferring that training to the street and work as police dogs. It is over seen by the Dutch police and 98% of all dogs that get a PH I are sold to police or military or security agencies.
I find the protection part of the KNPV very exciting, those dogs are probably the hardest hitting dogs anywhere, but, the helper is, for the most part, a punching bag.
I also love the article search as well as the search in the woods for both the helper and the object and I think they have the best "transport" style out of any other dog related training disciplines.
The NVBK was and still is the measuring stick if you will of all dogs. I agree with Kyto about the change in training techniques that has resulted in dogs becoming softer then in the old days, but, there are still dogs in that program that are better then most.
I dont have the inclination to type for ever, nor do I like to argue my opinion, so, please take a look at dogs like Bart Bello's Zodt and Lopez's A'Tim and Nierlelander's Egbert, I assure you that you will find them very interesting.
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