Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines - Page 3

Crossing WL and SL SV GSDs is not easily done successfully.  Arlett Kennels is one of the few that has done this successfully.  It is important to note that Ms. Van Dorssen always keeps a parallel sable line of top producing bitches to breed back in for vitality and desired, hard to get traits.  The key is having a top producing bitch that has a proven track record.  Arlett kennels has a long track record of success in crossing WL and SL and is one of the few kennels to do so.

Silbersee is another one of the very few to have done so and has a most impressive top producing bitch, V Chuckie vom Schloss Laer, undoubtedly one of the greatest import bitches ever in the USA. She has produced notably correct to the FCI/SV standard GSDs, eg GSDs like V Hutch von der Kalten Hardt, one of her most cotrrect.  This IS the ideal GSD that was so common in Germany in the 1970's and this IS the ideal GSD to breed for in mind and body.

For the average GSD breeder to try to crosss WL and SL import bloodlines is a true long shot that typically would require at least several generations of careful selection and help from a very knowledgable expert, perhaps a breed warden.

Silbersee is the exception, and has overcome these most difficult barriers to obtaining quality WL and SL crosses, proving to have the knowledge and experience to do this.  Examine what this kennel has produced.  It is most impressive and it is long term, not a lucky flash in the pan.  The key is always being able to acquire a top producing bitch, and Silbersee has them.  And then to breed these bitches to rock solid correct producing males that have strong WL roots. Done correctly you get the best GSDs possible, dogs that Captain von Stephanitz would have strongly approved of.
Silbersee has done it and is one of the few breeders anywhere to do so and end up with a GSD with correct physical conformation and correct working temperament.

 to Silbersee & Arlett

the most, absolutely most important thing to keep in mind when crossing the two is to keep solid nerves at the core of the
breeding!  i cannot stress this enough.  nobody wants a high drive dog with low thresholds and weak nerves.  throw in some
sharpness & aggression & you have a receipe for failure.  it can be done----not easy---but doable.  solid nerves, solid nerves,
solid nerves.  i'm dead serious!
pjp

Hi,
I am a newbie here but from asking about my dogs bloodlines on the forum, and the comments i got back, it would appear that my pup is mostly show on the sire with a mix of show and work on the dam.  He has a fantastic temperament and nerves of steel.  I am training with him for working dog trials so will let you know how he gets on.  We have our own sheep and is showing an interest in them but my other half isn't keen on letting him loose in case he just wants to eat them 

Hello Everyone,

I agree this is doable but only if good specimens of work and show lines are used.  To me it is ridiculous to expect the working dog to totally make up for lack of temperment and drive or the show dog to make up for every conformation fault that the work dog exibits. 

For myself I am willing not to place that well in the show ring if that is what it takes to get a dog that will really work.  The GSD is supposed to be all about excellent temperment, nerves, and drives with conformation being secondary.

Best Regards,
Cheryl

I heard this question ask in Germany to some very well respected breeders and trainers at a club and they all answered with: "You get the worst of both 99% of the time not the opposite, Better to keep working dogs as working dogs and let the others do what they wish, but to mix is a disaster' Helmut Riser also anwered this but in a much stroner way

Vomtreuenhaus: It sucks that the breed is so divided, but it is what it is. Border Collies have the same issues and arguments as we all do with GSDs.

And so does the Labrador Retrievers....with the "conformation Labs" being mostly couch potatoes, while the field Labrador retrievers (which are hunting dogs and are leaner, longer and highly driven) can go all day and all night long, in all kinds of terrain (wet and dry) and not miss a beat.  The field Labs (along with working line GSDs) are the dogs most frequently employed by the US special ops troops, for their missions.

The couch potato "Conformation Labradors" being the equivalent of the showline GSD (all show and pretty much nothing else) and the Field Labradors being the equivalent of the working line GSD.

 Hutch von der Kalten Hardt  is a very beautiful dog & must of been just as nice worker too. But isn't he out of all WL's?
 
WL's are still close to the breed standard, & if they are not it won't take breeders long to improve the structure to the GSD written standard.
The written standard for structure & temperament is closely represented by well bred WL's. Some WL's do need improvement in structure or more balanced drives, but both can be
corrected by breeding to the large selections of V-rated / correct structure WL dogs or WL dogs with balanced structure. The WL's will only take 2-3 generations to improve the breed back
to matching the breed standard. You see majority of WL's prized for both structure & work ability now. See this thread; http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/German_shepherd_dog/forum.read?mnr=155627
           Choice almost all the dogs listed on the thread are from WL's.

I don't see the benefit for large numbers of WL's to start to mix with SL's to correct structure, when most SL's structure are not adhering to the written GSD standard.
Do agree that SL's should be highly encourage to mix with WL's to help improve structure, nerve, work ability, & over all health. Both lines should stride to meet the written standard in
structure & temperament. The written standard will promote a correct working structure that will be beautiful to see in it's natural functionality & correct temperament.

Most hunting breeds that are divided into hunting lines or shows line are not inter mixed by hunting line breeders. They don't want to loose the work ability of their offspring by mixing with show lines. 
But many SL breeders will add in a HL dog to their breeding program every few generations to help add vigor & drives back in. HL's are widely used for detection work around the world / hunting / field trails.
Most people are now perfectly happy over the split. Pet people majority seek out SL's for their laid back nature.

The GSD can go along the same route as hunting breeds or both lines can focus on breeding to meet the the standard instead of fade of the time.

I said it before and I'll say it again: these are two separate breeds now. Mixing them would not help either one. For the working lines, crossing the two, would be like trying to "improve" RACING greyhounds' looks by crossing in show greyhounds. You'd end up with dogs that couldn't get out of their own way,instead of of dogs that run like a cheetah! A friend of mine said of the SL , they need to start over 'cause there's no fixin' them!

I think that Chris and Joe Stump, (Silbersee) have also had the advantage of a close relationship with Gerd Dexel of vom Haus Dexel. Some of you may remember Ajax vom Haus Dexel, a dog from the past that also embodied the greatness of the breed in all respects including producing total dogs.