showline bred with workingline - Page 43

Back OT. If you feel you have a sound plan, good dogs and a clear goal, then go for it. You will never accomplish anything listening to a bunch of talking heads telling you what you can't do.

Rik

Adam: I chose Laika because I have personally seen her and know that she has good drives & conformation and is currently undergoing SchH training. I certainly did not want to load up the dice and trot out some uber-siegerin, but a specimen that is in line with what I proposed. BTW, you said nothing of the male I proposed as a hypothetical mate. Ha,ha,ha,ha¿ To say that ¿Truimph is more in line, however many W/L studs have similar structure¿ is not out of line with what I have grown to expect from those who think that there is no room in the breed for anything but whichever line they propose. Just because one is not ¿on board¿ that WL dogs are the most, if not the only, correct, it doesn¿t mean that one has an absolutist point of view against all WL's. You, however, stated that you wanted a SL dog, so I got a prototypical two-time universal sieger. BTW, if you look it up, you will see that the Universal Sieger title was also won by some WL dogs. I found your choice of VYBORNY Pluto z Pohranicni straze most amusing since not only does he back out on his father¿s line to Rolf vom Osnabrücker Land, but Rolf appears a few times on his pedigree, as well as a US Sieger. In other words, your working lines dog is essentially developed out of showlines ancestors by way of DDR & Czech breeders whose interest was not the breed standard, but breeding border guard and other police duty dogs. IMPO, many are fine looking dogs, and as I¿ve stated before, should compete in the SL ring but for the stupid discrimination on color practiced by the SL judges. However, as in anything else, many WL breeders tend to focus on the ¿trait du jour¿ (Big heads, dark sables) in order to keep the cash coming and are headed to the same situation that plagues the SL¿s. To breed WL¿s to SL¿s is not a proposition to be undertaken without much consideration and care. Commercial breeders are more intent on improving their bottom line than improving the breed and it will take someone more committed to the breed than his own pocket to take on such an endeavor. Jeff: Much as I find your musings entertaining, and I do respect your knowledge in some areas, you missed this one. I don¿t refer to Preston as logical and clear headed because I¿m in agreement with him, but because he refrains from some of the behavior some here (me included) exhibit.

I too enjoy a good energetic debate and don't hold it as personal. Just because I disagree with some of the points put forth by WL owners/breeders, it does not mean that I'm against WL's. A lot of WL's owners seem to think that is the case. BTW, in researching on another topic I came across this kennel. I do like the dogs they have: http://www.tjaernshaget.de/

 ooh thats ma girl right there.  talkin bout Red Sable!!   mmmmmm

 Quote:  Jeff: Much as I find your musings entertaining, and I do respect your knowledge in some areas, you missed this one. I don¿t refer to Preston as logical and clear headed because I¿m in agreement with him, but because he refrains from some of the behavior some here (me included) exhibit.

I could care less about behavior, just as long as they are trying to make a point. 

I have been around enough to know that most people that breed are guessing at best. I will be doing a breeding soon, if everything works out right, and it is a guess. I do not know the french dogs, but I know what the dog I will be breeding to is, and I know the pedigree of the female, and what she is. It may very well turn out a bunch of doorknobs, but that is a chance I am going to take. I hope to bring a female here with a lot of FR3 dogs in her pedigree as well. The female I am using has a lot of knucklehead Sch3 dogs, and she certainly is a knucklehead herself. However, she does not have the high thresholds that so many dogs have. I can hide a soft sleeve and bust it out when she is just out to go to the bathroom and she will run over and it is on. She does not have that training, so that makes me even more positive that I might get what I want. She was a SAR dog. We will see, like I said, it is a guess in many ways.

I see the show line crossed into the Czech stuff here and there, but we do not see the whole picture. Most of the time that i have seen it, it is a one time deal, and we do not get to see what gets tossed from the litters afterwards. I have never seen anyone that actually knew the dog discuss why it was added to the program. My best guess has nothing to do with "structure" more likely it was a dog that had aggression. I am not always a big fan of the Czech dogs. Some are really nice, of course, but I have seen my share of duds more often than not. Some have either melted because they cannot deal with the work load in ring, and their aggression, or as I see it, their nerve gets in the way, or their aggression, because with the added pressure, they either do not out, or they release and go after the decoy in an attempt to get him to quit the pressure. I saw that in Rotts and hated that. I am sure that people will really like that, but the dogs released, gave it a shot, and would not re engage. Again, useless.

I also do not see people when discussing show line breedings talking about the dogs drive, character, or work. They will say he is a Sch3 but how many of us have seen Sch3 show dogs and wondered how they ever got the title ?

I understand the split, I even get how it occurred on the show side, as you breed for what the judges want to see. The problem is that it is one side of a many sided coin. I do see people throwing in a show dog here and there, but again, it is three four generations back. Occasionally I could see that if it was a good working dog, and passed that. I cannot think of my one example, Uwe maybe kirshental ? My brain is not really wanting to help me out here. That was a dog that passed working traits. You can see him quite often.

However, I see show people trying to crank up their dogs more often than I see working people finding a really nice example of show dog that works. Most of what I see is show people trying to infest the world with their "look" : )

Maybe when people start pointing out a dog that actually does work, and has not been dead for 20 30 years, I will pay more attention. I just do not see that.

bump

Jeff: The fact that you don't care about behavior is one of the things that makes you amusing and somewhat endearing... I agree that even the most knowledgeable breeders are basically just cutting down on the uncertainties that are inherent in breeding two animals. SL's are found in Czech dogs because, they are GSD's, not CzSD's. Most Cz dogs have a west geran origin. As a matter of fact, so do most DDR dogs. When I look at a dog, I don't just look at it as far as "drive, character, or work", I like to look at the whole dog and its intended use/environment. I know what you're saying as I've seen dogs who appear to have gotten their titles in a "Cracker-Jack-Box". I don't know about Show-Lines People or Working Lines people being any different, since it used to be GSD people. I also could care less about the status of a dog's color, but any trait taken to the extreme is deleterious to the breed. Your knucklehead dog may be a good example of a dog bred for a trait to a fault. By the same token, BOTH lines are at fault in the genetic bottleneck they've caused. Look up the recent Universal Sieger competitions for show-line dogs that can "work".

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