showline bred with workingline - Page 21

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Steve Schuler

by Steve Schuler on 11 August 2010 - 10:08

If I am understanding Chris' (Silbersee) analysis of Jeff's dogs pedigree correctly, she is pointing out that, at least on the sire's side, it goes back heavily to modern Showline foundations.  While in the interim from then until the present the breeding criterion of the French breeders who developed their lines on this foundation may have diverged from German Showline breeders, the fact remains that these dogs share relatively recent common ancestry.  I think this is interesting and significant to the question of what outcomes are possible with various genetic foundations and selective breeding.

As an aside: Jeff, you would probably enhance your credibility considerably if you would clean up your language.  Just my opinion, for what it is worth. 

SteveO

Abby Normal

by Abby Normal on 11 August 2010 - 13:08

I think it is beyond just cleaning up language Steve, needs to clean up a whole a state of mind towards living things. No rapport, no understanding.

His dogs loved running behind the truck for miles, looked like they were having fun? Try 'frightened of being left behind'. See, doesn't understand dogs at all. Likes dogs but calls them *shitters* - a term of endearment perhaps? NOT.

Said on a different thread, about exercising a young pup 'run the F***ng legs off it, if it breaks toss it and get a new one'  I have never heard a statement from someone about a young dog that demonstrated such profound ignorance, and total lack of understanding of how an animal can and should function, and at what life (and growth) stages levels of exercise and conditioning should be brought in, and I found it deeply disturbing.
 

Jeff you really should take up a sport that doesn't involve any living thing except yourself, and perhaps race trucks or something. You really can run those into the ground and toss them. But wait, I forgot, you think that's OK to do with a puppy too. 

No grasp of genetic influence, pedigrees or breeding. Silbersee you did a good job of trying to educate, but it's clearly a waste of time.

BEWARE this man. Do not ever let him near your dogs, and NEVER EVER let him train, evaluate or 'work' any animal. As one of my old trainers would say: Shouldn't be in charge of a china dog on the mantlepiece.

JMO

by johan77 on 11 August 2010 - 13:08

 Silbersee, yes, andershofer ufer was werner dalms kennel and that particular dog had has much influence in the swedish workinglines. But I guess the question is when does a line become working vs show? If someone starts out with similar dogs over 5 generations ago I guess the dogs today can be pretty different if one have focused on workingability and the other on a certian look. Even famous workingdog produces like troll v haus milinda has some showlines if his pedigree is correct, should we breed to papers or what we have today and know about the dog and his more present relatives? I

Some that have breed long may also have started out with "showdogs" in the late 70s and then countinud with their offspring and hence know what they breed on, but most of them seem to use workinglines stud nowadays on their breedingbitches, even if their bitches from the start were not typical workinglines. 

This stud (who works as a policedog) below has been used much here in sweden by workingline-breeders due to his strong workingdrives and of course of his ability to produce similar dogs like himself that also are above the average when it comes to health. The sireline is full of good strong dogs, his motherline is from similar lines as jeff dog as you can see. Obviously it would be foolish to not breed on this dog because he have some showlines here and there far back.

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/561552.html




Felloffher

by Felloffher on 11 August 2010 - 14:08

"His dogs loved running behind the truck for miles, looked like they were having fun? Try 'frightened of being left behind'.

Are you kidding? Weak dogs that have issues with being left alone might feel this way. When I leave my driveway and the dogs follow, do you think they are worried about being left behind? And magicaly we come back home each and every time.

I'll go out on a limb and guess you probably call your dogs fur babies and treat them like human kids. It's ok if your a little crazy, it's probably keeps you off the anti-depressants.


Kennel von Lotta

by Kennel von Lotta on 11 August 2010 - 15:08

It's destroying the breed when people breed for one thing only. You loose all other important things. Look at the Am. Shepherd - bred for the side gait only - lost all working temperament, I don't need to tell you. Most breeders will breed to what wins, whether it's in BSZS or in BSP. Yes, it's good to know that at least they have some goal for their breeding, vs. most breeders over here who just breed their pets, but if it becomes too narrow, it kills the breed.

In German show lines, it's people who only breed for movement and shoulder, or who love to breed dogs that are so heavy that they resemble a Stainbernard, and don't give a crap if the dog is skittish or lazy.

And in working lines, it's people who breed for grip work only, and completely disregard not only the dogs' structure, but also type. And also forget that GSD is a an intelligent, universal, utilitarian breed. Have you not seen a GSD in your club that everyone considers "nice" while this dog is so thin boned and with such poor head that it looks like a Mal? Don't tell me that "as long as it bites, it's a great dog." That's OK if you only in it for sport. But that is exactly the attitude in a breeder that destroys the breed. If you want to breed, and do the breed justice, you MUST take into account everything that makes up the breed. Like it or not, that includes structure and movement.

Or, have you not seen these dogs that are considered "great" by a sport enthusiast that are so insanely prey driven, that they are not capable to hear/see/feel anything the minute they see the sleeve and cannot learn? The dog gets abused and passed around from trainer to trainer, but hey, it bites like an alligator and comes like a freight train - a dream come true, isn't it?

Today, it takes a lot of time, and research, and trips to various clubs, trails, and shows, to be able to find a truly great German Shepherd, both in working and in show lines. A dog that is beautiful, harmonious, strong and powerful in it's looks and in it's work, a dog with solid nerves, calm, intelligent, responsive, with excellent balanced drives. I've only seen a handful of such dogs in the past few years. Does it really need to be that hard? Those who were fortunate enough to own such a dog will understand what I mean.

What about those people who want a beautiful, intelligent, trustworthy, healthy GSD, but have no idea that they actually need to spend two-three years educating themselves on the breed before they will be able to find such dog? I don't think it should be this way. When I got my first dog at 14, all I knew to ask the breeder was if the puppy had papers. I guess I was incredibly lucky.

Kennel von Lotta

by Kennel von Lotta on 11 August 2010 - 15:08

There is only a handful of breeders around the world who care about both work ethic and structure. Nostress, Fedor and Frida look fantastic, and a great prove that such breedings can be a true success. Very interesting, thank you for sharing.

And it's also great to be learning about Jeff's French dog and his lines! Thank you, Chris.

by Jeff Oehlsen on 11 August 2010 - 17:08

 Quote: As an aside: Jeff, you would probably enhance your credibility considerably if you would clean up your language. Just my opinion, for what it is worth.

I am never going to be civil to someone who thinks that what someone has to say is enhanced by the lack of curse words. You just put yourself in the catagory of abby. 

Quote: 
Today, it takes a lot of time, and research, and trips to various clubs, trails, and shows, to be able to find a truly great German Shepherd, both in working and in show lines. A dog that is beautiful, harmonious, strong and powerful in it's looks and in it's work, a dog with solid nerves, calm, intelligent, responsive, with excellent balanced drives. I've only seen a handful of such dogs in the past few years

Give some examples.




Felloffher

by Felloffher on 11 August 2010 - 17:08

Von Lotta,

 That was a well thought out post and I don't disagree with most of what you said.

 I'm not a schutzhund guy, but dogs bred in North America just for that sport a weak IMO. That being said, I have seen some titled dogs from Europe produce really kick ass working dogs. My breeder has an Olex de Valsory (BSP) son that is SVV1 and IP03 titled that is a very serious dog. He posses most of the traits an all round working dog should have and produces them as well. I think Jeff summed it up when he said North American's don't have a clue. There are some good breeders here that know what their doing, but it requires much more effort to find them then it does in Europe.

 The way I've been taught to select dogs for work is old school, but the end result is a dog that I won't disappointed with. All you guys with the showline's that can work and you want to breed them, do one test with your dog on sleeve. Have your helper fire a starter pistol over it's head on the bite. A dog doesn't need to be trained or built up for this test, it's just a raw test of nerve. If a dog is steady during this test then it's ready to be evaluated in other areas. If it runs, lets go of the bite or shows any other signs of shyness don't breed to that dog. Is this the reason shutzhund doesn't have a gun test anymore? 


by Jeff Oehlsen on 11 August 2010 - 17:08

 I swear there are good GSD's all over, but people are not breeding to them, because they don't want to get the pups back in 9 months. I am looking at the French lines, with as much ring in there as I can find, because the program is longer, and requires a different dog than Sch. A more awake dog. I also like to look to see which dogs that breeders like Daniel chose from Sch.

David sent me a link to the breeding he is going to do with his Hurles vent dog and a czech bitch. I  have no idea where it went. LOL That is another interesting way to breed. I don't always like Czech dogs, The dogs that I have seen were either a bit to high of threshold for me, or too sharp.  I may get a female from that litter.

Abby Normal

by Abby Normal on 11 August 2010 - 18:08

Felloffher
I'll go out on a limb and guess you probably call your dogs fur babies and treat them like human kids. You would fall right off that limb then wouldn't ya, and hopefully break your stupid neck in the process. no I don't call my dogs furbabies, I think that is a hideous americanism which makes me cringe every time I hear it or see it, but I treat them like dogs - not like machines. But, if I had to choose between calling my dog a furbaby or a shitter, there would be no contest - come here my sweet furbaby.

And magicaly we come back home each and every time. 
Dogs do not think ahead or back, they live in the moment.

It's ok if your a little crazy, it's probably keeps you off the anti-depressants.
What an asshole .





 


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