PREY DRIVE: ACTUALLY A FAULT? - Page 9

i think you summed that statement up in this one line here:

ability to handle stress amoungst , the ability to recover from pressure etc.....

those are two huge components in most training factors that can make or break a dog in almost all facits.And is crucial for the handler to recognize the dogs abilities and thresholds in that department as well as other. 

Obviously any methodology has it variations and different amounts of pressure. Depending on the dog.
I just have had great success thus far with my forced retrieve and have outstanding working relationships.
What works for one doesnt work for all. you know. Like I say i think a lot of it comes from my field/gun dog
back ground and have quite the array of dogs whom have doen well. Also I feel for different types of
retrieves differ alterations to methods are needed. whether schh dumbell, ducks/game, service dog
who has to pick up everything, retrieves predecation to article searchs, etc..

So its all relative i think.

anyhow not to get this way off topic. back to the original thread.

Alpha, those are training issues and also to an extent, genetic issues. A GSD was designed to be a versatile dog. They are very capable of doing more than one task exceptionally well and doing those task very reliably. Thats another trait of the GSD....reliability. The focus upon prey drive in breeding and training today only narrows that versatility and reduces reliability.

In fact this rule of not accepting any dog into SAR that has had protection training is just an excuse for weakness in breeding, training and handling.

i agree with versatility and breeding for prey beeing a fault however i do see why american sar doesnt want protection trained dogs.its because of the poor training and so on and so forth and the liability. has little to do with the dog but everything to do with narrowminded public opinion and lawsuits. in my eyes.

i for one do both. but noone knows it.

At risk of getting myself into trouble (and demonstrating my poor comprehension of most of this thread!), what is the difference between drive and motivation as you use the words, Alpha? 

GTDJ and Scout .. your words have validty : my posts /commentary are  aimed at the way we try to categorize the dog's behavior in words like prey , which falls short of really understanding what is the dog is about. AND YES    .. each dog behavior is the masnifestation of 50% genetic and 50% environment/learned experience. I have trained and worked a wide range of canines from akitas to rotts to dobes , weims, boxer , mals , aussies [for Sch ], bloodhounds for SAR.... But IMO the GSD is the BEST all round dog-  I will agree they can me multi-tasked .. a good GSD can eve learn more than two disciplines.... but ... and  I will qualify this statement... i would never teach a dog SAR and protection . but let me define protection .. i do not mean sport like Sch ... to most GSD s [ and there is nothing wrong with this] are purely sport .. when i say protection i mean a dog that is very very very  serious and means to take the other person out given the green light.  .. And it not ness. a case of poor training . Dogs can AND do make mistakes .. they are not robots. in ring sport .. there is a apprehsion call off the bite......when I trained state police dogs[ GSDs] there is no call off. once the dog is sent ... that is it ..not beacuse of poor training . but in the event they become so motivtaed they make a mistake [ allso due to litigation reasons , no liability with a failed call off] now is there]. So why [ and you are not the ffirst person i heard this from ]  would one want to train an SAR and a protection dog ?? again ..i am not talking bite word ....lord i can get a golden retirever[and have ] to bite and outon a sleeve!]. but if you disagree ok .. but at least agree that a dog trained in both vs a dog trained in just one DFOES have different outlooks .. therefore different , thoughts , wants , desires & motivations that aloow it to perfom to different behaviors and in that respect - the purpose of the thread .. still better not to use cliche words like drive, if you want to know will a dog have the motivation to find someone then .. then rthat's what ti is " the desrie to find someone" . and for those still stuck on prey .. tug of war - a dog biting on a rubber ring. vs a dog biting a Sch sleeeve.    is it in your words ... play drive , prey drive , fight drive ...what in the world do ascribe to the behavior... maybe as GTDJ had stated in a post prior .. a drive to posses/ be possesive ?? BTW thankyou for gentlemen/ladielike conversation and exchange of your ideas -AP  one last comment -- at 8 weeks old i start protection ... the lesson i teach day 1 .. nothing matters but the bite .. the pup [ provided the potential is there] learns eveything is irrelevent but the task at hand .. same with tracking .. day 1 , evey single distraction in the world is present . same lesson .. one job is taught .. and  they will become the best they can at a single minded endeavor. how many [ although i stated possible for a dog to have multitasks ] how many professional athletes play more than one sprt and become the best at it ? .. not many .. Maybe michael jorden  .. i can't name any others.

A German Shepherd is perfectly able to master the complexities of any task required and should always be a family dog first and a working dog second.

Specialisation is for insects.

Alphapup- thanks for sharing your insights regarding the SAR dog... 

As an aside, I acquired my dog FIRST, observed her behaviour, THEN decided based on her inclinations what job to give her- SAR.  It wasn't about what I wanted but what I saw in my dog.  One would say that's quite backwards!

Scout- here's one for you: an fd k9 handler I know told me of a NYPD GSD that was trained in German for criminal apprehension and trained in English for SAR.  The dog understood the difference in the mission based on the two!!!  And then, there was the story of another dog that had been trained in protection, switched to SAR, and sadly bit a human, and needless to say was tossed from the program (but hey that was a dutchie and not one of ours!).

LOL- specialization is for insects!  I love it!  Yes, the gsd is a very special creation indeed!

Oh I very much disagree about Protection and SAR. An extremely serious (but stable) protection dog can and does know the difference. Anything less is unstable training and or unstable breeding and genetics. Poor handling can also cause problems.

I do however very much agree about the term "drive". It fails miserably to describe the ever changing mind of a canine.

The dog that did both in NYC didnt need to be trained in two languages to know the difference. The other dog was unstable in some way and by that I mean it could be a genetically stable dog with poor training. Unacceptable whatever it was.

Thats my last post in this thread. I will leave you all to it.

Freemont, I'm in no way criticizing you, but your post got me thinking about the gross underestimation we are guilty of when it comes to the dogs. You mention the dog who was trained in 2 languages to differentiate between the jobs. That's totally unnecessary. I guarantee you that dog could do the same thing regardless of what language or how many were used. That dog could probably do so much more if its handler would give it more credit and realize that as much as we read our dogs (or try to- often we fail miserably), the dogs are reading us 100x more. I'm sure the handler's demeanor is quite different (whether the handler realizes it or not) when on a criminal apprehension as opposed to a SAR mission.

Call me ignorant, naiive, romantic...I don't care. We really need to give dogs a hell of a lot more credit.

Freemont, I'm in no way criticizing you, but your post got me thinking about the gross underestimation we are guilty of when it comes to the dogs. You mention the dog who was trained in 2 languages to differentiate between the jobs. That's totally unnecessary. I guarantee you that dog could do the same thing regardless of what language or how many were used. That dog could probably do so much more if its handler would give it more credit and realize that as much as we read our dogs (or try to- often we fail miserably), the dogs are reading us 100x more. I'm sure the handler's demeanor is quite different (whether the handler realizes it or not) when on a criminal apprehension as opposed to a SAR mission.

Call me ignorant, naiive, romantic...I don't care. We really need to give dogs a hell of a lot more credit.