In Breeding Puppies - Page 3

Pedigree Database

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by Charisma on 03 November 2004 - 09:11

Alphapup-I do not agree with crossing working lines to show lines at all! I know some people have done this, with terrible results, each set of lines as Kennyr stated have both good and bad genes, each breeder has to know what is in his lines by doing research firstly and find out as much about the bloodlines as possible... Sometimes you will only find out when that combination has been done and a fault appears, whether that bitch/male are recessive or dominant for this and avoid a future breeding like this... 2-2 to close, only a very expeirenced person who knows a lot about bloodlines attempts this. Vikram, I would never buy a dog from this close inbreeding...Go show lines or sport lines, one or the other make a choice based on your personal needs and goals for this dog...

by Vikram on 03 November 2004 - 09:11

Thanks so much all dear friends and your great advice. It has definitely helped me make up my mind regards Vikram

by Rochefeuille on 03 November 2004 - 11:11

Hi everybody. KENNYR, what you have written is really interesting. As I am also looking for more information about this topic, I would like to know where you found all the ideas you expressed in your answers. It would be, indeed, great for me if I could access good documentation about that. Thanks in advance.

by Barny on 03 November 2004 - 11:11

Vikram Don't do it. To many risks involved.

by ALPHAPUP on 03 November 2004 - 14:11

hello charisma -- i agree with what you stateda about results from show / working cross -it happens SOMETIMES -- but my response to that scenario ... i first empirically believe that so much damage has been done line breeding that on previous dicussion tbreders heve kept and stregnthened the GOOD traits BUT !!! this is my point about tooooo much line breeding .. THET HAVE EQUALLY IF NOT MORE KEPT THE POOR?UNDESIRABLE TRAITS .. there nees to be genetic diversity ... FORGET ABOUT MONEY .. and that what it just boils down to !! so as a result you have some breeders not with great certainty about either work /show line taking a crap shoot . you must know the genes and traits of each not well but excxeptionally well .. as i stated before on should have a great working knowledge .. then if you breed with intelligent anticpation of results perhaps thare would not be as bvad an outcome now annd then. that is the art to breeding to know your geneitcs .. i have seen a great number of crosses to add extremely good/exceptional by knowledgable GSD breeders .. stioll better than closing the gene pool as kennyr has explained. last point .. what is meant by poor resu;lts anyway ?? go back to 1800 and look at the GSD .. those people's lives in the fields depended on htose dpgs .. i believe ypu can see them on this site too ... what is so wrong about the form / function and work abilitites pf those sheps .. and they look nothing like sheps of today ??? all is relative -- i think we should bring the working line and show line towards each other and have a great well rounded utility , regal . courageious , loyal and noble looking shep as ythe standard calls for ..i thin we shouls reallly really stop worryiong if the withers for example are a 1/4 cm to low or high ... i would have one lower that can pereform when called upon than just to have a pretty looking dog ... that's what lap dogs are fro ..-- welll good fortune and success i wish for you , thankyou kindly for your response ...

by Charisma on 03 November 2004 - 15:11

Alphapup- We will have to agree to disagree, I cannot see hybrid vigour coming out of this, please give me examples of such... When Germany had the wall two groups of people were breeding to different "goals" and hence the birth of the "grey Dog" from the eastern parts,as we refer to it in our country (Not offensively) came about, I cannot see the benefit of using those lines to an already well established line bred dog from West Germany.. the shepherd has evolved,tremendously... in your reply you say damage has been done, are you implying showline breeders have been negligent?Most breeders, who are dedicated to the breed are trying to breed a well balanced dog, and a 1/4 cm wither as you put it is not a priority with everyone... that is such a generalisation.... I for one take serious umbridge to this, temperament and hybrid viogour are very important to me,I have even written a article on this on www.sapets.co.za breeding to the "extreme" has no benefits... Mixing working lines and show lines just doesn't do it for me.. But it is a free world each to his own.......

by FerrumGSDs on 03 November 2004 - 16:11

What we see as outcrosses and inbreeding are also only a touch into true inbreeding and outcrossing. While we argue the inportance of a 2-3, 2-2, or no relation for 5 generations breeding, you might want to look into the real comsequences of these practices. Lab Animals are often extensively inbred for homogenous traits in experiments. It is not once that a brother / sister mating is done, but try 20 times. that means you take a brother and sister, then breed the resulting brother and sister from that union, and breed again the brother sister from that union. Basically do this 20 times. then, you can rely to an exceptable degree, that the animals from that strain will be all homogeneous, and thus be suitable to gather the most reliable data when control and experimental groups are compared. An Extreme outcross might be the mule, (who holds high value as a working animal)and other animals produced from crossings of two individual species. Sometimes, a difference in cromosone numbers disallows these animals to be fertile, but that should not be a problem in two animals of the same species. Now, for an extreme example of hybrid vigor, two extremely inbred lines with no relation to each other must be crossed. You can likely get some Hybrid vigor from an outcross, but the true impact of such a breeding is seen when the two lines being crossed are also inbred themselves. I would look at inbreeding coeficiencies, and at understanding the meaning behind the numbers. You also might want to realize things such as the fact that no matter how much you linebreed on a sable ancestor, your not going to reproduce the color unless one parent of a planned breeding carries the color. This is an example of the importance of judging the individual animal being considered for breeding, and not only breeding for what looks good on paper. The Sable example is also an example of why we need to learn more about everything genetics has to teach us. I really want to thank those above who have made this a fantastic, educational and informative thread to follow. Best Wishes, Jo-Ann





 


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