Sloping back...Why? - Page 2

When the mix dogs get HD, you can only blame poor Breeding of some that call theirselves "Breeders". Good or ethicial Breeders do Prilims if wanting to breed younger females and OFA when two years. If the rating comes back Fair and below, they breed anyway as most do not even put a Rating on their Sites if they have one? The SV dogs get Hip Ratings at one year. I am not talking about the slope of the American Dogs that are crippled to show in the ring. I am talking about a slight bend from the whiters, croup not more than 23 degrees then when stacked up they look very nice. I have been looking and asking some of the Big Breeders and they become quite affended. One said, My male is bred to look exactly like he does, (has slight bend), and he wins if you read the Seiger Reports and I have.

The difference you are seeing in the German dogs of the 40s and 50s versus the German dogs of the present is in the POSING of the dogs. In those days they didn't stretch out the rear quarter. You can see good photos of a particular animal of today and bad photos of the same animal depending on how he is POSED. A correctly structured dog posed with his rear feet directly under the hip sockets will stand level over the topline. Therefore when you stretch back the close leg and move forward the far leg in the rear quarter you will lower the rear assembly and consequentially cause the topline to appear uphill from rear to front. With dogs that have poor structure all bets are off.

You spoke of German GSDs from the 40's being different than those of today. The only pictures of German dogs from the 40's are those after WWII. By then, there was not much in the way of breeding stock left. Of course, it is only the Americans who went in for and created the "slopping" back. (Actually, most American bred shepherds do not have a slopping back and if they were allowed to stand normally, i.e. not so artifically stretched, when they were stacked, you would see this. The Germans went from a concave back toward a straight back to the slighly arched back we see today. Perhaps the seminal event in the change of anatomy for German GSDs came in the late 1920's when von Stephanitz signaled he wanted to improve and change the structure of the GSD. It started with Utz von Haus Schutting in 1929. From that point on he was trying to change the back structure of the GSD. You can see some changes in the early 1930's before he died. After the war, Dr Funk (of Haus Schutting), a close colleague of von Stephanitz--and probably the man Stephanitz himself would have picked to succeed him, continued on the path that Stephanitz had begun. As for the Americans, it was after WWII that they decided they didn't need to take orders from the German breed club SV whom they often called "Nazis" and they decided they would go their own way leaving the international community of breeders--which they did trying to produce the sloped backs and ever wider side gaits. It should be pointed out that there have been no statistical studies which show HD is more likely in dogs with sloped backs, roached backs or straight backs. While anatomy plays some role, genetics and not anatomy plays the major role in HD. Careless overbreeding seems to confirm this. From the 1950's-70's GSDs were horribly overbred both here and in Germany (whose stock was greatly diminished after the war) The rise in HD was astronomical. Since the SV put its HD program in place, HD, though certainly not irradicated, has dropped significantly in Germany. At the same time it has risen dramtically in such breeds at the Labrador and Golden Retriever which are being indiscriminately over bred.

Klossbruhe: look at Ursus v. Batu's pedigree and look all the way back to Ingo vom Piastendamm (1934) Look at the progression from there. No sloping backs in 1934. Nothing until mid sixties where the rounded back and sloping hind quarter start.

The height of the sloping topline might have reached a pinacle in the 80s in America, but I'll do some research later, and post some old articles. One theory I have about what hurt the reputation of the Am show-line GSD is that in the begining, the most angulated puppies were kept as show prospects, and the less angulated sold as pets or to become working dogs. Then, the pick show pups were the least angulated, and they expected the pet puppy buyers to accept the ones with too much angulation even for the show ring. Another thing was that the all breed rings were smaller and did not allow for proper gaiting, so dogs with good angulation, who did not particularly use that angulation well in movement,but who had fantastic type, could get Championships. All Breed and Specialty became different styles, with only a few animals being able to show in both very well. The East German Dog Newman Jim?? I think won in the all breed for his topline, and Type. German Imports are still and were always prized, and after the war, some people did import still. It is lost somewhere, in the gazillion articles I have, but I distincly remember that the name of the breed was challenged at one point in America, because it was felt that the word "German" held bitter memories and bad associations. In 58 the Best of Breed and Grand Victor of the GSDCA National was an ALL German dog called Yasko von Zenntal. He was owned By Frank Lopez of Totana? and handled to the title by Ernest Loeb.He is not the last German Import to go Select. I can be about 95% sure, but it might have been Asslam v Klammle who was the last German Import to go Select. Then, people said he was sold to the US for bad temperament. Some years back, I know that many GSDCA members worked on the Standard to make it more like that of the SV. These people gave their time, because they love the breed and do respect the origin. The SV replied with a letter saying that only a translation verbatum, would be acceptable to them. This did not sit well with the membership. And less, after they were all motivated and exited about the changes, to the extent of illustrations, etc showing proper angles and everything. The Extreme slope is not as popular now, and the American Specialty GSD also now often flaunts a slight arch. It is fondly called the "Iron topline". Many argue that it is stronger, and stays firm while the dog trots. I think more Imports are doing well in AKC show ring. and frankly, I see MANY German dogs on this site, that I feel would easily get an AKC championship. We have not talked about the time frame when the GSD actually moved into the AKC working group, and back to herding. Lots to share here. I am very greatful for this website. Best Wishes, Jo-Ann

Great post, Jo-Ann.

JO-ANN AMENNNNNNN, GREAT POST!

WHY ?? this is a GOOD TOPIC -- What i can add is for one to look at FORM TRANSLATES TO FUNCTION -- the answer is because breeders of the pasr desired the sloping back --- most peopel are aware that the angulations aloow the dog a futher front reach and more powerful extension of the rear gait .. howevever what i find most interesting is that when one opts for one form then another form and function are sacrificed -- for example in begium ring and french ring the dog musat jump stright up a 6 foot palaside wall -- compared to malinois the shepherd cannot leap , hurdle or climb the paladise as weel .. not that the GSD are less of a dog -- what i am pointing out is that a better trotter but in ability to cover ground more easily/less effort , longer and with further reach .. another trait/attribute was affected -- was/is it worht it ?? i am still undecided -- the GSD as i stated is the most versatile all round dog ...-- hope we breed to keep it that way without sacrificing to much

Alpha, Your right in you comparison of the shepherd to the malinois,And if the malinois was to enjoy the success the German Shepherd and for the amount of time the German Shepherd has we more likely then not will ruin them also.The malinois in the showring over here are considerbly larger then their Frency and Dutch counterparts.A male KNPV malinois is lucky he weighs 65pounds on a heavy day and are considerbly shorter.......do you think this was how the downfall of the German Shepherd maybe started?We Americans think that bigger is better for some odd reason, that is not always the case The average malinois will useally run circles around the average shepherd all day long and think nothing of it.

I do not know that this is correct but maybe a possibility and justification. The GSD is a trotting dog and therefore it is important that selective breeding improve this function. A longer shoulder blade and upper arm improves front reach. When you lengthen these two with the length of leg constant .. The height of the withers would naturally increase and therefore create more slope from withers through the back, loin and croup. Has this change improved the gait of the GSD? I think it has improved although some breeders such as in the USA could be accused of taking this to an extreme. It would be better to address this question to an older German judge who has had a direct influence on breeding stock through his own selection at breed shows and breed surveys.