GSDs in the German Press - Page 3

That really proves my point, thank you Hans.  The top dogs in Tactical Obedience and handler protection were Malinois.  The other dog a mix breed.  It appears the Malinois are very popular in AZ. with the Police Dept's. 

As far as SEAL dogs. SEAL teams need extreme dogs

If you consider dogs with high drive, social, clear headed, natural aggression and the ability to turn it on and off.  The dogs must be able to contain themselves and have to be quiet and not "leak" drive.  The dogs have to be in phenomenal shape and be able to work for hours and stay in drive.  Their dogs must be clear headed and stable.  I don't consider that extreme, just really solid,high drive, reliable dogs. 

I find the comment that part of the decline of the GSD is the high prey drive dogs to be very interesting.  I haven't seen dogs much higher in prey than a Malinois and they make excellent Patrol and Detection dogs.  There is no doubt they have a civil side and will bite when needed.  Perhaps Raiser is correct when he told the SV that we need to cross breed the GSD with Malinois to get back our working dogs and save our breed.  GSD's need high prey, high drive to work as Police Dogs, herding dogs, SAR, Detection, etc amongst other things.   Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and lose the prey drive that our working dogs desperately need. 

I think the problem with some handlers and Malinois is not understanding the differences between the two breeds.  You will have a rough time if you try to train a Malinois like a GSD and vice versa.  They require different styles and approaches.  I'm a GSD guy through and through but it is hard to argue with success.  I can easily find good GSD's for myself to work.  But working and training with both breeds every week the Malinois are hard to knock. 


I think we as GSD people need to take our head out of the sand and realize what is happening to our breed.  Why is every competition that both breeds enter consistently won by Malinois' over GSD's?  In Police dog trials, SchH, ring sports, dock diving, agility.....Once the Malinois people discover herding they'll take that over too.   The only thing we can hope for as GSD people is for the malinois to become really popular in  the Conformation arena.  That will be the demise of that breed as it has done to so many others. 

JMO,

Jim


  

"The only thing we can hope for as GSD people is for the malinois to become really popular is the Conformation arena.  That will be the demise of that breed as it has done to so many others. "

Abbi,
read my post again!
I have NOT posted any comment of myself whatsoever, only copied two sentences from Silbersee! Please pay attention.

Jim
Very nice post and very well said.

Nowhere have I said ( as Jim mistakenly states)  that the GSD should not have a high prey drive. I have said that versatility of a GSD was put on  back burner in favor of  high prey. Which means just that. Today breeders are breeding for high prey and are omitting versatility. That does not mean that high prey is bad.  GSD should have high prey and high defense but not extreme prey or extreme defense because this extremeness is detrimental to it's versatility.

 GSD is a versatile dog which does not serve only as a police dog or as a sport dog. GSD serves  #1 in a capacity  as a family protector . Other tasks are  S&R dog , handicapped support dog, herding dog, ....and on and on. If bred properly then such GSD can be taken on any such  path and perform well if trained well. If the GSD is bred only for high or extreme prey then we have a problem.

Malinois generally ( but not totally) can not perform in many above mentioned tasks in which the versatile dog needs to perform, since part of the versatility of the breed ( in general)  is that they must be ( most importantly) able to live in  non professional family in the house. Malinois are extreme in their prey and to call them level headed is a mistake. Their extreme prey may serve them well in some tasks and be a hindrance in others. That makes them different then GSD who should not be extreme dog but versatile dog.  

 I do not dislike Malinois. They are what they are and as I said GSD people should be remained what the GSDs are loosing   these days to Malinois and maintain by proper breeding better shepherd, which can compete with Malinois,  but with versatility in mind.  I have posted the results from AZ K9 trials as a example how the Malinois are winning some and GSD are winning some and all around dog was Mal-Shep. The trial was not really representative of the ratios of the GSD to Malis in AZ. The  fact is that most departments which were represented were from around Phoenix, there are many departments who prefer GSD,  likefor example  Nogales( and I know this because I am providing them with GSDs) who is on front line of border war and smuggling and related crime to these activities. It does not get much more "real" for Police K9 work  then in Nogales . They did not attend. On the other hand AZ DPS is using strictly Malinois and they attended.

AZ DOC is involved mostly in detection and they have won in that field with 2 GSD and one Mal-Shep.

Thus what I am saying is that GSDs and Mals can do the same type of a work and yes as Jim said the approach of training is different.  Some departments prefere GSDs and some Malinois based on their philosophy and preferred training approach accepted in each particular  department.
 

Prager Hans

Thus what I am saying is that GSDs and Mals can do the same type of a work and yes as Jim said the approach of training is different. Some departments prefere GSDs and some Malinois based on their philosophy and preferred training approach accepted in each particular department. 

Very interesting. 



 

Hans said
"Malinois are extreme in their prey and to call them level headed is a mistake"

I would beg to differ. I have been around hundred of police K9s and trained with and watched alot of them train. I have seen alot of LEVEL HEADED mals.  Are there some that are not, sure! As there are some GSDs that are not level headed. For if all Mals were not level headed then there would be none in Police work, KNPV, Ring Sport, PSA or SchH. I have trained with Ivan Balabanov before when he was here in California. He has some of the most level headed Mals out there, they are also extreme in their prey and defense. All around very nice dogs! So to say that Mals are not level headed is a misconseption.H

Here is one very nice Mal.... Lamont Houston's Porter.
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=kPkTEnMJKG0

 
 To Jyl
Malinois due to their high prey are famous for biting their handlers, fellow officers, sport judges, trainers, and kennel personnel and family members, friends visiting the household and  innocent bystanders.   Because of that millions were and are paid in settlements by LE agencies all over USA. I do not know if it is still current situation, but at one time state of Nevada decided not to use Mals for LE for that reason.
 Yes there are exceptions, but as a whole I  would not call that level headed breed as a whole. Many PDs are forced to utilize E collars not as a training choice but as a necessity in order to control actions due to the extreme prey of these dogs.  
Yes they serve well if handled by experts and  are impressive flying over the cars, and during sports events and competitions,  being very fast and quick to response and so on, but below is a video  of what I am talking about. It is  in the last part of the video where  the handler gets bitten by his own dog in " drive" in the hand.  I have seen it often. That renders dogs like that to be only handled by experts and not suitable for amateur  families and many beginner handlers on PDs. For that reason they more often as not can not be part of the families inside of their households, but must be and are kept in the kennel behind the house. That is more often then not  done by sport enthusiasts as well. From my own experience many Malinois are put to sleep by families who purchased them as a pet or a family protector and subsequently family  members or friends or children  got bitten because they got up too fast from the chair or did some unexpected sudden move.
  There are other even more controversial aspects of their perception of complex situations which I am not going to get into since I am sure I have already said enough to put Pacific ocean on a fire.
 Id say that Ivan  Balabanov has some more balanced Malinois I have seen, but that is not the rule but exception as far as the breed goes as whole.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC7ln917oiU&feature=related


On the end I would like to state again that I do respect tremendously Malinois  for what they are and do  not dislike Belgian Malinois breed and I, staunch GSD man,  have incorporated them into my K9 programs where we train them and subsequently provide them  to  Law Enforcement  agencies who request them.
Prager Hans

Obviously there are many GSDs capable of policework and other tasks, so to say the malinois is better I think is not right, better on what I ask? Jumping over cars is probably a very small part of policework, nosework a big part but I guess not so impressive to look at for many;)

Some mals are not suited for certain jobs just like not all GSD are perfect, it´s about the individual dog and the job it should do, who cares if it´s a malinois or GSD, it´s not like the malinois has taken over everywhere and in every situation. 

Johan,
Obviously there are many GSDs capable of police work and other tasks, so to say the malinois is better I think is not right, better on what I ask? Jumping over cars is probably a very small part of police work, nosework a big part but I guess not so impressive to look at for many;) 


Of course you can find GSD's capable of Police work.  I have found that many rural jurisdictions want GSD's and not Malinois because they only use their K-9's for tracking and detection work and not actual criminal apprehension.  For those PD's a good Lab would work just as well, but doesn't present the same picture to the public.  I have not seen a notable difference between a Malinois trained to do Detection work and a GSD.  I would say they are pretty comparable in nose work.  I agree detection work is a big part of my job, my GSD does an excellent job but so do the Mals on my PD.  The Malinois can also track as well as any other dog we have, even better than some GSD's but that is a handler issue. 

Some mals are not suited for certain jobs just like not all GSD are perfect, it´s about the individual dog and the job it should do, who cares if it´s a malinois or GSD, it´s not like the malinois has taken over everywhere and in every situation.  

I test, evaluate and select dogs for Police work as part of my job.  I do not sell or breed dogs.  I work and train with Police K-9's every day and work the street with my dual purpose GSD.  When testing potential dogs, I test dogs not breeds.  I do not care what the dog looks like, what it's pedigree says or what breed of dog it is.  I love GSD's but it is very hard to find suitable GSD's in the $7,000 price range that are as good as the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds I test.  I work primarily with 3 vendors that import dogs and will visit each one to test and evaluate their dogs.  The testing process in very involved and I rate and score each dog in about 10 or 12 categories.   I keep records on each dog I test in case I go back a month or two later to test more dogs and see the same dogs again.  When testing dogs, more and more I see more suitable Malinois and Dutch Shepherds being offered for sale than decent GSD's.  I usually wind up being disappointed with the GSD's I am seeing lately.  It is really unfortunate as I am a GSD guy at heart, but I have to select the best dog that I see for the job.  I am leaning towards a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd myself for my next Police Dog and I have an exceptional GSD. 


Hans,
Most of what you said about the Malinois can be said about a lot of GSD's as well.  I have seen GSD's bite their handlers and other cops and GSd's that are a pain in the ass in the house.  Many sport people keep their GSD's in kennels.  I have known many Malinois that are great with kids, great in the house and social.  We pass all of our dogs in our arms to members of the SWAT team and they hold them, put them over their shoulder and carry them.  We do obedience with gunfire and down our dogs on top of the team members in a prone position.  My GSD is more likely to bite a team member holding him than the Malinois assigned to our team.  Our Swat team guys are also trained to lift our dogs off a bite.  I would like to see statistics on the millions paid out by LE agencies by breed.  I would actually like to see the statistics and cases of LE paying out millions in settlements for bad bites.  I'm sure most of the accidental bites can be attributed to handler error, stupid cops getting in the way or "Hold and Bark" training for Police dogs.  I