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by Blitzen on 05 June 2012 - 13:06
RS, I wasn't necessarily talking to you either. Good to know that you have looked at ASL's and lived to tell the story.
Personally, if I were just starting out in dogs, as much as I love my GSD, it would be the very last breed I would ever consider breeding. When I got into my original breed in 69 I had 3, 4 great mentors eager to help me. Breeders gave me dogs, reduced and even free stud service on top notch stud dogs. When I had to ship a bitch, they picked them up at the airport for free, no boarding fees, and if the breeding didn't take I got to send the same bitch or a different one as many times as it took to get a litter of 3 or more. We all knew one another personally, cheered each other onward because we ALL had a vested interest in seeing that all breeders were successful. We wanted our breed to be a great breed and one we could be proud of. As a result, I was fortunate enough to learn know how to breed some very good dogs and I paid that back by helping other novices. We never promoted one line over the other and, yes, there were big differences between the dogs that worked and the dogs that didn't. Now those lines have been combined for so many generations that most of the dogs produced today by the serious breeders are good working dogs, good performance dogs, and conformation Champions.
In 94 I bought my first GSD thinking I might want to breed a litter now and then, so set out to try to find a mentor and information on the breed. I didn't know there were ASL, GSL, GWL, I thought a GSD was a GSD. I was an AKC person, fell in love with Manhattan when I saw him go best at the Garden. Gilligan's Island, Mystique, Uzi, they boosted my love of the breed. Went to my first Sch trial, saw my first WL dogs, thought they looked different, but I still didn't understand or care why, they were GSD's. The most important thing I learned from my mentors was any fool, including the man off the street, can fault judge a dog.
After almost 45 years in dogs, I am pretty much appalled to see how ununited this breed is. WL vs SL vs WL and hardly anyone says anything positive about ASL's. The ASL breeders detest the German dogs, say their temperaments are horrible and they can't stand their roachy toplines. It's that attitude that needs to change. Why there are no American SV judges is mind boggling. Some AKC judges have tried to crossover and have been blocked by the American echelon that caters to the SV. I don't think there are very many other breeds that would allow this to happen. Over all these years in dogs I have only met 4, yes 4, GSD breeders who have open minds when it comes to the different lines. All are AKC judges who cannot judge SV shows.
WL's, SL's, ASL's, none are perfect and each has its own set of unique problems that needs to be fixed, but the first thing needing fixed is this hideous attitude of my dog is better than your dog and ALL SL's are roach back cripples, ALL WL's are ugly and too drivey, and ALL ASL's are hockwalking cripples.
Personally, if I were just starting out in dogs, as much as I love my GSD, it would be the very last breed I would ever consider breeding. When I got into my original breed in 69 I had 3, 4 great mentors eager to help me. Breeders gave me dogs, reduced and even free stud service on top notch stud dogs. When I had to ship a bitch, they picked them up at the airport for free, no boarding fees, and if the breeding didn't take I got to send the same bitch or a different one as many times as it took to get a litter of 3 or more. We all knew one another personally, cheered each other onward because we ALL had a vested interest in seeing that all breeders were successful. We wanted our breed to be a great breed and one we could be proud of. As a result, I was fortunate enough to learn know how to breed some very good dogs and I paid that back by helping other novices. We never promoted one line over the other and, yes, there were big differences between the dogs that worked and the dogs that didn't. Now those lines have been combined for so many generations that most of the dogs produced today by the serious breeders are good working dogs, good performance dogs, and conformation Champions.
In 94 I bought my first GSD thinking I might want to breed a litter now and then, so set out to try to find a mentor and information on the breed. I didn't know there were ASL, GSL, GWL, I thought a GSD was a GSD. I was an AKC person, fell in love with Manhattan when I saw him go best at the Garden. Gilligan's Island, Mystique, Uzi, they boosted my love of the breed. Went to my first Sch trial, saw my first WL dogs, thought they looked different, but I still didn't understand or care why, they were GSD's. The most important thing I learned from my mentors was any fool, including the man off the street, can fault judge a dog.
After almost 45 years in dogs, I am pretty much appalled to see how ununited this breed is. WL vs SL vs WL and hardly anyone says anything positive about ASL's. The ASL breeders detest the German dogs, say their temperaments are horrible and they can't stand their roachy toplines. It's that attitude that needs to change. Why there are no American SV judges is mind boggling. Some AKC judges have tried to crossover and have been blocked by the American echelon that caters to the SV. I don't think there are very many other breeds that would allow this to happen. Over all these years in dogs I have only met 4, yes 4, GSD breeders who have open minds when it comes to the different lines. All are AKC judges who cannot judge SV shows.
WL's, SL's, ASL's, none are perfect and each has its own set of unique problems that needs to be fixed, but the first thing needing fixed is this hideous attitude of my dog is better than your dog and ALL SL's are roach back cripples, ALL WL's are ugly and too drivey, and ALL ASL's are hockwalking cripples.
by Blitzen on 05 June 2012 - 13:06
Never mind.........
by Blitzen on 05 June 2012 - 13:06
He didn't say, above all the gsd should be a b/r hock walking speed trotter running around in circles, chasing squeaky toys/bells/whistles.
Joanro, this is exactly the sort of statement that is counterproductive to the future of the breed. I could easily respond to that statement by knocking WL's in a similar fashion, but I'm not going to start another of those battles.
Joanro, this is exactly the sort of statement that is counterproductive to the future of the breed. I could easily respond to that statement by knocking WL's in a similar fashion, but I'm not going to start another of those battles.
by joanro on 05 June 2012 - 13:06
Why? Is it the Stephanitz quotes of his vision of the breed you object to? The breed is in trouble because of straying from his vision and developing a virtually separate breed and still trying to pass it off as a GERMANSHEPHERD DOG. You can't build a paper airplane and pass it off as a fighter jet and not get outed!!
by Blitzen on 05 June 2012 - 13:06
Why can't you just say what you don't like about SL, ASL, etc. Why does it always have to be couched in a derrogatory manner? Why couldn't you simply say - I don't think this breed is intended to only/ever be a breed for the show ring and why.......
It has nothing to do with being PC or not hurting anyone's feelings, it's just good manners and not so condenscending. You have a very good point to make, Joanro, more are going to think about it if you can present it in a positive way.
It has nothing to do with being PC or not hurting anyone's feelings, it's just good manners and not so condenscending. You have a very good point to make, Joanro, more are going to think about it if you can present it in a positive way.
by joanro on 05 June 2012 - 14:06
I posted what the man himself said about his breed...it is obvious to me what is meant by his words. There is no need to decipher and wonder what his words mean; they are very clear and simply put. They don't describe the GSL or ASL so it would be redundant for me to state what I don't like about them. Blitzen, "couched in a derogatory manner"? I was describing what the SL's do or you would not have known what I was referring to when I mentioned hock walking...........bells/whistles. If the truth feels derogatory to you, then you could be in denial about the SLs. Life's a bitch sometimes. Especially when people just won't put words down the way YOU want them to. That's what independent thinkers do, they put words down the way they want and not the way someone tries to dictate. ,
by Blitzen on 05 June 2012 - 14:06
Have at it, Joanro.
by GSDguy08 on 05 June 2012 - 14:06
Joanro, this is exactly the sort of statement that is counterproductive to the future of the breed. I could easily respond to that statement by knocking WL's in a similar fashion, but I'm not going to start another of those battles.
How is that counterproductive? Do you think people who like working line dogs structures better (as many do resemble the first GSDs and many of the ones early on in the breed) should just say.....hey, there is nothing wrong with frog shaped dogs running around, or hock walkers as Joanro said, or dogs who aren't actually fitting to the standards in temperament and working ability often times......Just keep breeding them, after all, we should just accept it and be united German Shepherd lovers so everything will be better, this way no one will be offended......... It takes both sides of it to "change" ......SL breeders need to work on their faults (seemingly many seem to think they don't have any) and the same for WL breeders to work on faults in their dogs/lines. How anyone call tell me how a dog in the picture I posted, or others similar to it are "closer" to the standard .......when you look at the dogs who "were" the standard back when the breed started is beyond me.
How is that counterproductive? Do you think people who like working line dogs structures better (as many do resemble the first GSDs and many of the ones early on in the breed) should just say.....hey, there is nothing wrong with frog shaped dogs running around, or hock walkers as Joanro said, or dogs who aren't actually fitting to the standards in temperament and working ability often times......Just keep breeding them, after all, we should just accept it and be united German Shepherd lovers so everything will be better, this way no one will be offended......... It takes both sides of it to "change" ......SL breeders need to work on their faults (seemingly many seem to think they don't have any) and the same for WL breeders to work on faults in their dogs/lines. How anyone call tell me how a dog in the picture I posted, or others similar to it are "closer" to the standard .......when you look at the dogs who "were" the standard back when the breed started is beyond me.
by Ibrahim on 05 June 2012 - 14:06
Ok, I will say what I think/understand and I don't claim it is the truth but at least it is what I believe it is.
1. The Captain decided to create a new breed which was called the German Shepherd dog, he was himself a Captain in the Cavalry with all the knowledge and appreciation for the role of the horse. He knew of various good working dogs at the time, he used several dogs to start the breed and had a vision of the type/form he wants to reach. So what he was doing actually is gradually making the form he had in mind through breeding various dogs and each generation he made a step forward towards his goal and towards the image he had in mind, this image was later put into specific words (the standard). I look at this creation as a continuous effort and gradual achievement. In each Sieger/ VA a step was made further towards reaching his vision. No dog or VA in history was closer to that image than our present VAs, look at the structure in connection with the movement, balance and consistency. Each VA was a step forward but there was never created a perfect GSD where a stop should have been made and only copies of the same were to be made and that's it.
So to say that for example Quanto form was the goal is not correct in my opinion, he was a step forward but not the epitome if I may say. Also I do not agree that the Wl dogs of today are closer to Quanto than the Sl dogs.
Please note that Quanto was not nearly perfect in Proportions, balance, fore and hind angulations etc, he had some and missed some but in proportionality he was a betterment than what was before.
2. What the Captain did is simply shaping up the form of the breed from generation to generation and at the same time preserved the inner quality through watching closely and using a work dog when seen necessary. This practice is what we're missing today in breeder's practice.
I believe in some structure aspects the breed is better and in some it is worse but in total the breed's structure of today was never better and closer to the standard and to the creator's vision.
I agree that the Sl lost great part of the work ability and inner quality and in this respect it is not close to the standard as it was 30 or 40 years ago.
3. I agree with you totally, no better to say I learned from you that focusing on one color was and is a crime to the breed, I agree with you on the vitality of temperament for the breed and there you're doing great in your posts. I appreciate your fairness in pointing the faults of the Wl breeders.
I do not agree with you on the following:
a. You do not appreciate the correct form/structure of the GSD and you can live with a good working dog even if it's structure is not correct. When the GSD is = Structure + Inner quality and if one is missing it's not a GSD anymore.
b. You think that the vision of the Captain was achieved through some past Siegers and I think there was never a VA that symbolized the perfect GSD in structure till today.
c. You think in structure some older VAs are better than today's VAs and I think the opposite.
Ibrahim
1. The Captain decided to create a new breed which was called the German Shepherd dog, he was himself a Captain in the Cavalry with all the knowledge and appreciation for the role of the horse. He knew of various good working dogs at the time, he used several dogs to start the breed and had a vision of the type/form he wants to reach. So what he was doing actually is gradually making the form he had in mind through breeding various dogs and each generation he made a step forward towards his goal and towards the image he had in mind, this image was later put into specific words (the standard). I look at this creation as a continuous effort and gradual achievement. In each Sieger/ VA a step was made further towards reaching his vision. No dog or VA in history was closer to that image than our present VAs, look at the structure in connection with the movement, balance and consistency. Each VA was a step forward but there was never created a perfect GSD where a stop should have been made and only copies of the same were to be made and that's it.
So to say that for example Quanto form was the goal is not correct in my opinion, he was a step forward but not the epitome if I may say. Also I do not agree that the Wl dogs of today are closer to Quanto than the Sl dogs.
Please note that Quanto was not nearly perfect in Proportions, balance, fore and hind angulations etc, he had some and missed some but in proportionality he was a betterment than what was before.
2. What the Captain did is simply shaping up the form of the breed from generation to generation and at the same time preserved the inner quality through watching closely and using a work dog when seen necessary. This practice is what we're missing today in breeder's practice.
I believe in some structure aspects the breed is better and in some it is worse but in total the breed's structure of today was never better and closer to the standard and to the creator's vision.
I agree that the Sl lost great part of the work ability and inner quality and in this respect it is not close to the standard as it was 30 or 40 years ago.
3. I agree with you totally, no better to say I learned from you that focusing on one color was and is a crime to the breed, I agree with you on the vitality of temperament for the breed and there you're doing great in your posts. I appreciate your fairness in pointing the faults of the Wl breeders.
I do not agree with you on the following:
a. You do not appreciate the correct form/structure of the GSD and you can live with a good working dog even if it's structure is not correct. When the GSD is = Structure + Inner quality and if one is missing it's not a GSD anymore.
b. You think that the vision of the Captain was achieved through some past Siegers and I think there was never a VA that symbolized the perfect GSD in structure till today.
c. You think in structure some older VAs are better than today's VAs and I think the opposite.
Ibrahim
by joanro on 05 June 2012 - 14:06
Blitzen, you changed your post AFTER I responded to it. What I responded to was this originally by you: "joanro,, your post is exactly why the breed is in trouble." Now I will respond to your revised post: Go ahead.The breed standard is the breed standard.
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