Limited Registration Discussion - Page 8

Hans,
I don't think we're that far off.

Vito: I didn't see that link you put up. Lots of Blabla's dogs in there. PS. They gotta have prey.


I'll try to say this tactfully, but none of my dogs have blabla as their breeder. None came from arizona, I paid to import all of them. ( Of course with pragre as the contact with jinopo) They are from three different kennels in Czech. My foundation dog is from Jipo- me as is one my foundation bitches. My other two foundation bitches are from Glitch and Zelene Uzlabiny.

For what it's worth, I made these choices on my own and had the plan for the direction I wanted to go and the way to get there. It was a work intensive project that took years to develop...raising and training and making decisions based on what I saw in each and every dog I raised and each pup I produced. 

The dog, Body Jipo- me I imported from jinopo as an eight week old puppy....raised and trained him here at my farm along with the other two dogs I titled in sch. He was the first I titled concurrently with two others.
He was a very civil dog, cared very little for the ball and no food motivation. The key to getting him to focus on me was bite reward using the decoy.
The female, Barna I imported from Czech along wit hanother female, Ajsa ( a very " sporty female), as senior puppies. Barna had plenty of prey drive, very civil, tremendous herding instinct....a great asset on the farm.
The dog Axel from them, was like Body, very little prey drive, very civil, not a social butterfly.....all my dogs had and have clear head, stong nerves and environmentally sound.

Axel' s brother, Arco I raised and trained untill he was three years old and he, along with a one year old daughter from my first Axel/ Ixe litter went to a PD and became apprehension dogs.

I imported Ixe and her littermate sister, Igrochka as eight week old puppies.....they were half sisters to Body.
Ixe was very high prey drive, very social dog. Igrochka was high prey drive but very civil and not what I would consider a peaple social dog ( except family)...at all.

The litter from Axel/ Igrochka (2-3 line breeding on their dam) I raised all of them till two years old, kept two males and one female
That was to see first hand how these dogs would turn out...teeth, testicles, temperament, exrayed and OfA all of them...all with good rating and all but one normal elbows. One dog had a grade 1 elbow but never lame, etc. I did this same line breeding four times using two half brothers, and two littermate sisters. I won't go into detail here but I saw great similarities from the two sisters using the same male and a bit of difference with the half brothers. But all were very good litter turn outs)

.....Olivia who is the granddam of this litter. Olivia is carbon copy of her dam, Igrochka.
Winnie is out of a litter of three, two females and one male. The male is the dog I posted the picture of with him sleeping with the baby and with him in bite training.
The other female I raised and trained untill she was 15 months old...she had zero interest in tug work, or bite work...not fearful, jus not interested....yet her desire to carry anything, a fold up chair, a huge rubber livestock feed tub, large stainless steel bucket ( carried them for me going down the road to the feed the sheep)
At 15 months I placed her with a man who does drug and paraphnalia searched in different public schools....two months later he had her on the job and the first day she made two busts ( found drugs in one car in the parking lot, and a hidden loaded shot gun in another car) her trainer/ handler told me that in the class rooms she would jump from one student desk top to the next in her search he said she was like a cat...totally ignoring the children!
Winnie is high prey but civil and not social...just like her mother, Grand dam, and grand sire, and great grand sire.
I expect this litter will follow suit. ( This is Winnie's s first litter and she is also like all the females in pedigree and is a great mother dog)
 

I have classes tonight, in which I am instructor and also decoy. I don’t know if that qualifies as training...haha, But I did train in the past. Anyway, I think that the “ intent “ of Sch ( IPO), is different than in the past. Thus the evolution of training has produced an evolution of type of dog. ( or the lack of training has evolved into a different type).
I agree with Vito that a prey dog can have strong defense traits, but I also agree with Prager that IPO routines and pure prey really doesn’t require defense. My concept of Herding dog is a dog that needs prey to help round up sheep and move them, but also requires defense to handle sheep and defend them against danger. Balance of drives...the evolution of the breed to me has changed this dichotomy greatly.

I think people need to appreciate how much different sports effect selection for traits that increase the likelihood of a dog doing well in a particular sport. In IPO, the three phases are broken up, whereas in Belgian ring, the dog does all phases at once and is on the field for about 45 minutes so the dogs are bred for endurance. The bites are also longer compared to IPO where there are only five short bites. IPO selects for a pulling bite and Belgian ring selects for a pushing bite. That is why I think a korung that seriously challenges a dog and gives a rating on a number of traits is probably the closest to an ideal test of a dog's character. I don't see the SV breed survey assessment of protection as being a challenge to a dog at all, and that is because of the politics and large number of show dogs that make up the SV that would never pass a tough protection test in a breed survey.

Gustav, yes there is a correlation between prey and herding. Herding is genetically evolutionary modification of prey. It is, however, an instinct which is inherrent in wolves, and bred out of many gsd because they have been selected for prey drive with the exclusion of herding instinct....too much prey and no herding instinct makes for a disaster.
But a dog with prey drive that does not have herding instinct is not going to herd....he might be able to be trained to go through the motions for a basic test, but that is not real herding instinct.

apple
There should be a return to the wertmessziffern system

it's just set of criterias with numerical assignment for each trait.
implementing it won't change anything in present breeding trend. changes should be in breeder's minds. without that even best tests easily will be screwed up to fit market trends and demands.

If the evaluation is done by competent people, are you saying people will buy dogs out of breeding partners with poor ratings on basic nature, temperament and fighting instinct, hardness and courage, etc?

Vito the video which you posted show a dog who fails to even open the mouth. He is going through the routine but is environmentally stressed which is obvious to me from the moment he leaves the handler. This is WUSV so I am sure that the dog is not a lightweight if he qualified to be there. My point is that tghe dog was trained in prey and in to him familiar environment he was having fun. He was always trained to be in comfort zone. But in a competition of WUSV caliber the fun is being pushed away by the stage fright on the handler and on dog  whoere they both are nervous, and there is a strange decoy and, smells and noises and almost all COMFORTABLE AND FUN familiarity is gone and is replaced by stress which puts the dog in fight or flight mode. But the dog was never trained in such mode so the dog does not know what he supposes to do with the emotion of fear caused by a negative challenge of unknown. So he fails. But the failure is not necessarily predicated on the dog's lack of courage. But it is predicated by a fact that the dog was never appropriately trained to deal with a situation where he is out of the comfort zone. My point is that the training and IPO, in general, is not having exercises which would deal with a negative challenge when the dog is in flight or fight. The way the courage test is performed is to get the dogs prey drive to such a high level, that it overrides any negative challenge to the point that the dog does not even recognize it as a negative challenge. That is not courage!!!!!!!! That is why malinois with their excessive prey do not show fear because due to their high prey override they do not recognize the negative challenge at all and not because they are particularly brave.  They are not wich is easily provable with Chicago police test.  

Hans,
What you put in bold is what I was going to basically say about Malinois in our previous discussion. He sees a big frisbee, not a scary man .

That video was posted to simply show the exercise. Yeah I put "bad ipo courage test" in the search because I wanted to show the helper's actions and dogs reaction. It was actually the first and only video that came up for just this exercise and I wasn't going to search further.
I'm not going to talk about the dog, handler, performance, etc. This conversation started with you saying all exercises were pretty, and I disagreed. We both feel the way we do and I don't think either will change our mind, but just because you train for this in prey, doesn't make the actual trial exercise a "prey exercise". To prove this, take a dog that has had no training and run that exercise.
I think we are both closer in agreement than you think, but whatever . I've enjoyed this conversation.