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by KYLE on 07 December 2017 - 21:12

Once you get to 4-3, 5-5 linebreeding, is there a significant contribution of genetic material? I am not sure that we can attribute any of these traits, from happen stance, linebreeding or coming from another dog in the pedigree.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 07 December 2017 - 23:12

Yes, absolutely. I just bought a little female linebred 4-5 on one of our late females. She looks just like her. She has her head, color, structure, everything. It's crazy. Same thing with my Orlo puppy that I just got. Orlo is 5-5 on Olko and he looks just like Gildo and one of our old dogs. The Orlo puppy I got looks just like one of our dogs. He probably will look more like Orlie color wise, but if you'd line him up with the old O litter (Olko, Orlie, Olnop) he'd fit right in.

And there is already one major attribute that came down through Gildo. It helps when you've personally known the dogs.

by duke1965 on 08 December 2017 - 07:12

linebreeding on paper doesnot nessecarily reflect the actual genetic buildup of the dog, especially when doubled up in 4th or 5th generation there are tons of other dogs/genes involved, and when linebred on a dog in 4th or 5th that isnt strong line bred himself, chances are very slim to reproduce anything similar.


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 08 December 2017 - 16:12

Only because most people never even breed beyond three generations. How many do you know that can legitimately say they bred more than 5 generation of dogs? People don't know the dogs that are behind. They don't know what type of dogs they were, what attributes they had. They can't tell whether or not the dogs have the looks, expression or even the same attributes or type. However, if you do know them, then you can select for the same type of dog and go from there.

by duke1965 on 08 December 2017 - 17:12

LOL even hard to produce pups that look a bit like their dad , let alone 4 to 5 generations

by Koots on 08 December 2017 - 17:12

Phenotype does NOT equal genotype. Even though a dog may physically resemble or even strikingly be similar to an ancestor he is line-bred on, does not mean the character/temperament will be the same.


by susie on 08 December 2017 - 19:12

Genetics is math with a lot of unknowns, because a lot of genetic traits are the sum of not only one allele, but several alleles.
But let´s use an easy example like " a breeder wants to manifest the longcoat gene " ( LL dogs )

L ( longcoat ) S ( shortcoat ) LS shortcoat, but carrier for both SS short coat only LL longcoat only

1. LS x LS ( sire and dam stockcoats known to carry the longcoat gene )
LL x LS x LS x SS
result: one coat / 25 %

2. LS x SS ( sire and dam stockcoats, but only one parent carrying the longcoat gene )
LS x LS x SS x SS
result: no coat, but 2 carriers

3. SS x SS ( sire and dam stockcoats, none of them a carrier - no chance )
SS x SS x SS x SS
result: no coat 0 %

4. LL x SS ( a coat bred to a stockcoat, who is no carrier - no longcoats, but carriers )
LS x LS x LS x LS
result: no coat, but all of them carriers

5. LL x LS ( a coat bred to a carrier )
LL x LS x LL x LS
result: 2 coats 50 %

6. LL x LL ( a coat bred to a coat )
LL x LL x LL x LL
result: 4 coats 100 %

As a result a breeder who wants to breed 100 % coats, will use coats, pretty easy.

So as conclusion a breeder who wants to breed dogs with certain traits should use parents / ancestors who already show those traits; way better than waiting for a miracle. That said as a breeder I´d use parents who already show the traits I want to produce.
I am no breeder, but I always picked my pups out of parents I knew personally, most often I knew the 2. / 3. / 4. generation, too. This has nothing to do with linebreeding, just with similar traits.

Biologically one ancestor out of the fourth generation is only able to give 6,25 % of it´s genes, that´s fact, and you don´t know which part it was...93,75 % have been given from 29 other dogs...

Back to the coat example:

- It´s useless to breed 2 "SS" dogs and hope for coats = it´s useless to breed 2 genetically fearful dogs and hope for fighters
- It makes sense to breed 2 "LL" dogs when your goal are coats = it makes sense to breed 2 "fighters" in case you want to breed fighters
- It´s a 50/50 chance to breed "carriers" ( and how do you want to recognize the carriers without a gene test? ) = so why do it at all?

The more similarities in the parents/ancestors the higher the chance to get a similar litter.
Linebreeding only makes sense in case the breeders who linebred always looked for similar traits in the offspring, because otherwise a special trait may be lost within one generation. And different breeders tend to look for different traits, we are humans.

That said I am looking for visible traits, not for linebred dogs...but that´s just me.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 10 December 2017 - 16:12

Most people don't know the old dogs and the dogs that they linebreed on. All they know is third hand information at best. However, if you know the dogs, you select for the same type, for the same traits, that's how you keep those traits in the first place. By selecting for them.


by Hundmutter on 10 December 2017 - 16:12

Yes but everyone needs to accept that they may only GET the traits in a minority of puppies from those selected matings, unless they are very lucky. I think one of the misconceptions that arises is because people talk in such absolute terms. Just as physical similarities are perpetuated in the phenotype of SOME offspring but not others, this will be equally true of temperamental traits and drives as possible inheritance.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 10 December 2017 - 18:12

Which is actually normal. There may only be one single puppy in the litter with those traits. But nevertheless, they come down.

Same goes for backmassing in dogs. Just because it's in the 9th generation, doesn't mean it won't influence your dogs. It does! And we are just finding out, how much it actually influences the breed now.

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