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Main > What is a King Shepherd (51 replies)

by LRGSDKS on 07 January 2013 - 05:01

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I have an 11 year old GSD. She is a genetic mess. HD & Ed in all 4 joints plus pano. I had her rebuilt when she was one. Now she has IVDD and DM. She has been to Hell with me right there with her. People are destroying the GSD. They are not suppose to have that ugly deformed sloped back. Most of the GSD breeders think that they are, especially in California. If you have ever gone through the Hell that my Shepherd and myself are going through, you would be very leery of getting another GSD. That is why I got a KIng Shepherd. Got her from an honest breeder. She is perfect, healthy, strong, beautiful, loyal, protective. She is 2 1/2. I am getting another one in a few months. Yes, she is not a pure German Shepherd. I stand a much better chance of having a healthy dog with a King than I do with a GSD.

by roblew1 on 07 January 2013 - 05:01

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When i was growing up a king sheps was West German  show line sheps. They were very loyal to thier family and sharp or reactive to outsiders.

by Hundmutter on 07 January 2013 - 09:01

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'King' Shepherds are not and never have been West German Show lines GSDs.
They are a separate 'variety' of larger, based-on-GSDs  (probably more ASL),
dogs achieved by crossing in other dog breeds - Google it.  There are a couple
threds on here that discuss them currently.
I do not believe they are any more healthy or less prone to genetic problems
with hips etc than other dogs are.  If you are unlucky with your choice of pup,
you are unlucky.  How much 'research' did you do before you bought your old
bitch ?  Incidentally, 11 is no bad age for such a wreck as you describe to reach ! 

by Bob McKown on 07 January 2013 - 12:01

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A marketing ploy! Nothing more.

by roblew1 on 07 January 2013 - 13:01

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I agree marketing poy, but i dont need to google it  Hundmutter. Wright or wrong  thats what every one in my neck of the woods call them.

by Sunsilver on 07 January 2013 - 15:01

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Here is the website of Shelly Watts-Cross, the King Shepherd breed founder:

She was originally a breeder of Shiloh Shepherds under the ISSR, the registry of Shiloh Breed Founder, Tina Barber. Tina took her to court, as she chose to breed outside of Tina's very strict standards. As Shilohs are still 'a breed under development', all breedings must be approved by the breed warden (since Tina's death, this is her daughter, Lisa.)

Here's the record of court judgement, which states Shelly can no longer call her dogs 'Shiloh Shepherds'.:

As for the health of the Kings, many breeders of long-coated oversized dogs DO make an effort to eliminate health problems from their stock. It's like purchasing ANY dog: investigate before you invest, Caveat emptor and all that...

And to each his own: if you like this sort of dog, fine! Just don't expect it to be everyone's cup of tea, and you will not be able to show them as they are not a recognized breed under AKC or CKC. I think the UKC recognizes them??

by Hundmutter on 07 January 2013 - 15:01

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Well then Roblew    'everyone'   in your neck of the woods, wherever that is,
IS wrong.

Guess somebody local to you must have said once that the German (ie original)
German Shepherd Dog was the 'king' of dogs, or something. and that got spread
around ?   There is certainly no other basis for calling  West German GSDs
"King Shepherds".

by Bob McKown on 07 January 2013 - 15:01

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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 03:15 pm
King,Shiloah even heard them called Max Shepherds... It,s all a marketing ploy... Basically people who have taken shepherds and breed tham over sized. 

by Sunsilver on 07 January 2013 - 16:01

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Hundmutter, what I think is happening, (because I've seen it in person) since the crackdown on oversized GSDs in the SV showring, many breeders are marketing their oversized dogs as King shepherds, and selling them to buyers who don't know better. This is often done without papers, so it can't come back and bite them as having misrepresented the dogs!  Angry Smile

by Hundmutter on 07 January 2013 - 16:01

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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 08:43 pm
Sunsilver, you may be right about that.   Not aware that it has
begun over here, despite that we do have a few ppl selling
both (so called) Shiloh Shepherds and King Shepherds in the
UK.   Mind you, given the complications over how 'real' they
can be in the first place if they are not proven-from-source
imports (!),  I suppose they could just be oversized 'ordinary'
ie German ancestry  GSDs ?   Not sure about bitches, though;
we never had as much of a size problem with females (although
yes there still have been some big bitches about).

I suppose for how LONG Roblew has been 'growing up' with their
neighbours' misinformation, is the next question ?Devil Smile

by Sunsilver on 07 January 2013 - 16:01

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Hundmutter, yes, there are a lot of 'wannabe' Shilohs out there that are nothing more than poorly bred mixes! Some of these dogs even have unknown ancestors in the pedigree. When Tina was alive, she'd go into fits about this. You can't establish a new breed by constantly outcrossing, as some of these people are doing.

Like I said, caveat emptor! 

Hundmutter wrote:  (although yes there still have been some big bitches about).

[bites tongue]

[backs away from keyboard.... ]  Teeth SmileTeeth SmileTeeth Smile

by Hundmutter on 07 January 2013 - 18:01

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by roblew1 on 08 January 2013 - 03:01

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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 06:27 am
hundmutter, I do not post for drama. If you are wright then you are right., no big deal. I come here first to learn.
In the south they  call it soda and the north they say pop, no matter what its a drink. Im just stating what is see in my area. happy new years and stay positive to alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

by mrdarcy on 08 January 2013 - 14:01

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Posting from duplicate thread started now deleted.

King Shepherds
by LRGSDKS on 07 January 2013 - 23:01
   Make stickie

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Hundmutter--the only reason my "old bitch" has reached 11 is because I have the money to keep her going. My King is another big reason that she is alive and can still move on her own.

by Rico on 08 January 2013 - 15:01

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by Sunsilver on 08 January 2013 - 15:01

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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 09:04 pm
What a gorgeous head! Is that a King shepherd, Rico?

by DanicaBeckefeld on 08 January 2013 - 16:01

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It's not a marketing ploy. People are fed up with horrid sloped back GSDs and are trying to make a healthier straight backed GSD. The GSD was and is meant to be straight backed. I have very old books that have detail drawings
and old black and white pictures showing straight backs as right and sloped backs as faulty. Stupid show people who did not care about their dog's health bred their dogs to have severaly sloped backs as they liked how the sloped backed GSDs trot around the rings like little horses. I say if they like the horse like trots so darn much, then they should get out of dog breeding/showing and into horse breeding/showing. Those sloped backs are the reason for hip dysplasia and other joint problems in GSD now. It's gotten so bad that many in police, military and private security companies have stopped using GSDs and are now using other straight back dogs like Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois.

So true GSD lovers have no choice but to try and save the breed by breeding it to other straight backed breeds. Thus the true reason why there are King Shepherds, Shiloh Shepherds and other new GSD cross breeds. These sloped backs dogs, bring nothing but ruin to the GSD. If you really love the breed then stop breeding, buying or showing those sloped back mutants. They are not sound and usually have horrid temperments as well. Not to mention the severe inbreeding in them causes even more mutations and health problems.

by Hundmutter on 08 January 2013 - 16:01

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Lmao.  Danica you are parading your 'instant expertise' yet again, 
it really isn't as simple as you make the issues sound, sorry.

[I have yet to see a horse with a sloping back, btw.]

Can we straighten out these basic points:
1  No the GSD breed was never intended to look structurally like
   ASL-type Show Dogs have become;     but:
2  Having said that,  a)  you need to take a closer look at the dogs
   in the flesh, because the slope is greatly exagerated when dogs
  are placed in 'stance' for photographs and judges;
  b)  nor were the original dogs ever intended to stand 4square and
flat backed like coffee tables.  You have to read the original Standard
and surrounding notes in Von Stephanitz and others' books, not just
look at old photos.

Even if  your version were true, WHY would the production of Kings
and Shilohs have involved crossing in extra large and giant breeds eg
Newfoundlands and Malamutes with over-sized GSDs, just to get a flat
back  ?  Plenty of others available.   It is well known in dog breeding that
first crosses are often bigger/taller than their parents are;  so anyone
breeding JUST to 'improve' shape would have taken that into consideration,
don't you think ?

PS you declare the sloped back to be the 'cause' of HD.  Please go and read
some medical textbooks, HD has been with the breed since its beginnings. 

by Sunsilver on 08 January 2013 - 17:01

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That's true, Hundmutter, but it is much more common now than it was. I forget the exact figures, but around the time hip x-rays were started, a VERY high percentage of GSDs were dysplastic. (And of course, the x-rays were being done because they were the only accurate way of diagnosing dysplasia.)  I think a large part of the cause was breeding to popular sires that were either dysplastic or carriers of dysplasia.

Yes, I know, even that is an oversimplification. Diet and exercise also play a role.

As for outcrossing to other breeds, I can tell you why it was done with the Shilohs, since I'm familliar with their history. When all the dogs out there that are available to breed to look like this: 

yeah, you'd be tempted to outcross too!  If you blow up the photo a bit, you will see the dog went 'Excellent-select".

The American shepherds from this era were small and lightly built. I've heard of one breeder who got out of the breed after her future champion broke its leg running down a hill.

Both Tina's father and grandmother had bred GSDs in Europe. Tina quit school, and began working for a show kennel when she was just 16 years old. She then went on to purchase her own kennel. During the '80s, she saw everything her favourite breed had become and hated it. She wanted big, strong dogs with good bone, good hips, and solid temperaments. She wasn't seeing that in the American show lines.

She tried to bring in German lines, and paid $5,000 for a promising, well-bred  young male. He turned out to have just about the worst hips the vet had ever seen.

She also wanted to preserve the distinctive look of her dogs. That wasn't going to happen unless she removed them from the AKC gene pool.

Finally, she decided to take the leap, and outcrossed to a dog that was part giant malemute and part American GSD (Secret Samson Woo).

by Rico on 08 January 2013 - 17:01

Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:20 am
Hello Sunsilver,

Aslan is a upperlarge GSD and for us he is a real KING! A
As well as his father, mother, brother and sisters he has the best hips and elbows.
HD A normal, ED A normal.

He is social, very healthy and gives very beautifull strong-boned puppies.

puppie 6 weeks old

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