German Shepherd Dog > 14 week old GS pup bilaterally cryptorchid... (47 replies)

by Killshot on 09 November 2012 - 23:11

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...and purchased from very reputable breeder in Minnesota.  I am a onetime previous owner of a phenomenal GS and have always had 2 hounds --  I found that a GS and wolfhound or Newfie made for a great pair.  I have been thru the cryptorchid wars before (in Wolfhounds this is often accompanied by insidious cardiomyopathies and early heartbreak) and had planned on possibly breeding the dog thru the breeder (as we paid premium for his alpha male from the most recent litter).  My questions are:

1.  Any experience with bHCG injections to enhance descension?  There is some literature if given between 14-16 weeks that this might definitely promote descension.

2.  Although my contract warranties hip and elbow health, there was no explicit cryptorchid language.  Nonetheless, he was delivered at 9 weeks cryptorchid.  Do I have any grounds to request any satisfaction (partial refund, payment for cost of orchiectomy or orchiectomies, etc)?

3.  Will this GS have any higher incidence of anything else (as in wolfhounds which I know a great deal more about)?  I explicitly told the breeder of my cryptorchid experience with my previous wolfhounds but did not write that explicitly into the contract.  I am unlikely to part with this guy (Luther), but I am a little disappointed based on what we paid and expectations.

Thx!



by DDRCzechFan on 10 November 2012 - 00:11

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If you specifically told the breeder you wanted a breeding dog/show quality dog and they gave you a pup with an undecended testical, that's pretty low. 

If you never specified you wanted a dog for anything other than pet, I STILL think the breeder should've had the grace to inform you, "Hey, you'll need to have this puppy neutered, he is not to be bred and or showed" in which case it would've probably prompted questions from you, only naturally.

Don't know the breeder's side of it, but I'd be mad, they sold you a pup with a defect (which may correct itself or may not) but you STILL, regardless of your intent for the pup, should've been informed.

by Bhaugh on 10 November 2012 - 01:11

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I would request a replacement. The surgery is pricy to do and you should neuter him when time. Retaining the testicles could lead to a higher incidence of cancer. Lets just see how reputable the breeder is now that you have a cryptorchid dog.

by Killshot on 10 November 2012 - 03:11

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Thx for the feedback -- I did indeed mention that I would love to train him well and start a line of progeny if he turned out to be the stud I was told he was to be.  There was never any disclaimer on my part that he would never be anything but a "pet".  I emailed him today with the 14 week gonad report, and he has not responded.  I am hoping that we can work something out, but at the very least, this little boy was nto worth what I paid (show quality price).

by trixx on 10 November 2012 - 04:11

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i would give  the pup just a little bit longer as maybe they will drop, but by 4 to 5 months if they are not down then he should be fixed and you should get a full replacement, if you brought  a breeding/show quallty puppy thats what you should get. i will say if its not in the contract most breeder wont replace , unless you had  an agreement. i guess i would talk with the breeder maybe he will work with you. selling a puppy at 9 weeks at that age not all  testie will fall yet.

by Nans gsd on 10 November 2012 - 16:11

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Give them more time to drop;  they are either there or not.  I WOULD NOT NEUTER HIM UNTIL FULL MATURITY.  Maybe 2 or around that age.  OR another option, return him now.  BOL  Nan

by Bhall on 10 November 2012 - 16:11

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Yes, they can still drop. However, I check testicles before pups go home and I inform my customers if one or both have not dropped. Every breeder should check before the pups go home. I will also cover the extra cost for neutering. 

by GinaBel on 10 November 2012 - 17:11

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I believe that if you can not even palpate them within the inguinal canal, they are unlikely to drop. Even if they do drop at 5-6 months old...I do not believe that this dog should be bred, as there is a risk that future puppies will be cryptorchid. This is an inheritable defect and should be avoided.

by Killshot on 10 November 2012 - 18:11

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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:19 pm
Thank you all a bunch.  he did respond and offer to replace, but I am bound to wait a minimum of 6 mos and will not neuter until 2 years (I am an internist and do the whole bioidentical hormone thing with my patients and have never neutered my IWs or Newfs and they live longer than avg and are healthier).

I may try a brief trial of bHCG 500 IUs sub q 2x/week x 4 doses this next 2 weeks and agree that he is not breeding stock as of now. 

I will report back to this very responsive community!  Best,

Chris Foley MD

by Rasenhof on 10 November 2012 - 21:11

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I have bred GSD's for 50 years and have never heard of any monorchids much less cryptorchids dropping the missing testicle(s).  I can palpate the male pups by 8 weeks of age and find the testicles.  I did one litter with about 4 or 5 pups and sold them.  One buyer called me when his pup was about 4-5 mos of age that his vet could only find one testicle.  They brought the pup to me and yep only one.  I probably checked one pup twice and this one not at all or missed.  We agreed upon 1/2 price for the pup.  Papers were returned until neutered.  I never heard from them again.  The 1/2 price was less than an unregistered pup would have been.  Oh well.  Now with the limited registration I reduce the price because of the missing testicle, tell the people about the testicle, give them a limited registration.  And so far everything has been OK.  The last one,  not my lines,  was very handsome and Ch sired.  The owner called me that someone at the park wanted to breed to the dog.  Dog was now 2 yrs of age.  The owner noticed the limited registration and called me about changing it.  Then I remembered the missing testicle.  The owner had forgoten.  He said, of course the dog should not be bred and we were all happy.  Limited registrations work.  Years ago a man gave his monorchid pup all sorts of chemicals with no results.  I think the breeder should refund some of the money.  Or take a replacement pup and sell it to make up the difference.  Good luck    Alice  

by dogshome9 on 10 November 2012 - 22:11

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Alice --- Are you suggesting that the OP take a replacement puppy and then sell it to make up the money last on puppy ( 1 ) ?

by aaykay on 11 November 2012 - 02:11

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Alice --- Are you suggesting that the OP take a replacement puppy and then sell it to make up the money last on puppy ( 1 ) ?

I am guessing what Alice suggested is for the breeder to sell the puppy who could have been the replacement puppy, and pay this guy that money as compensation for the situation.

by rtdmmcintyre on 11 November 2012 - 02:11

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The Doberman I currently have had only one descended.  we had him neutered after three years of age which allows him to develop his full masculine looks.  Had him neutered not only so he couldn't breed but also a non descended has a higher incident of prostrate cancer if not neutered.   

by dragonfry on 11 November 2012 - 03:11

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My Schn trainer had a litter of GSd's that when they left for new homes all the males had clearly desended. But at 1.5 years of age one of the males was returned (Due to owner issues with moving, not the dog) and he is a monocryptorchid. Seemed he some how pulled that one testie back up into the canal and it got stuck there. Trainer had the dog neutered and placed as a pet. So even if you see them at 8-12 weeks they can go missing.
If you didn't get the dog you wanted (whole and intact) then return him.

by PINERIDGE on 11 November 2012 - 05:11

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wow - this is quite a sad story -- I'm kinda dumbfounded as to why the breeder didn't inform you -- at the time of shipping - that there were missing testicles.  I tend to agree that they can be there at   8 weeks and slip back up - but BOTH of them?  IDK !!

When one of my pups was shipped from Germany - we was supposed to have 2 descended  -  and I believe y breeder that they were there.
However - I didn't think to check on arrival - and it wasn't until a few weeks later he went in for shots that the vet found only one. 

A very capable reproductive specialist said she could "feel it" and that is might descend - but no such luck.  The breeder couldn't explain how he might have got shipped with only one - - but I understood the possibility of a simple accident -- maybe there were not two there to begin with?  at any rate - the breeder promptly refunded about half the original purchase price -- they do not have pet prices and show prices -- only one pric for all -- but she didn't even ask for a doctor's certificate of examination -- just immediatly sent the money back.  As it turns out he did not grow up to be  a dog I would want to breed anyway -

Time Passes --  no money to neuter him -- so he wasn't done for a couple of years. When he finally went in - the vet could not find the missing bits..  Two hours later - an an incision 3/4 of the way up his middle - he found a pea sized reminent of a testicle --  second worse surgery of his career he said -- biopsy came back negative - so technically - he probably didn't have to be neutered at that point anyway.

but to the OP's problem -- I think definately you are due back a large refund - and some kindof explanation as to why you were not informed of the pups "status" at the time you plunked your money down..  I think that's just dishonest.   show or pet notwithstanding -- even pet owners have the right to know EXACTLY what they're getting - and the consequences of that -  i.e.  expensive surgery at their own expense.
 .

by Killshot on 11 November 2012 - 15:11

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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:19 pm
One last question:  if this bilaterally cryptorchid boy at 14 weeks is kept, what is the likelihood (in this board's opinion) that he would have relatively normal development over the next two years with 2 unkown gonads?  Any experience that he becomes underdeveloped, gynecomastic, a bit of a dwarf, etc?  Also, would this breeder simply euthanize him?

I appreciate the fact that many of you true breeders are a little more hardened to this kind of stuff, but we are a little challenged by the 5 weeks of bonding (as well as the fact that my IW has become very protective of him).  I am 80% certain we are going to simply give hi back and request our money and vet costs back but am allowing 1 more day before making a decision..  Again, thx!

CF

by Bhaugh on 11 November 2012 - 17:11

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I had a bilateral cryptorchid and it didnt change his physical appearance much. He did seem a bit on the hypersexual side though. Not sure if that had anything to do with his testicles though. You've bonded to this dog but you can just as easily bond to another puppy. I can only speak for myself but as he grows and you put your blood, sweat and tears into the dog AND realize that original goals of breeding will still be there, you may regret the decisions you make now. That has been a hard lesson for me to learn.

The is absolutely NO reason to put the dog down. Neutering him will correct this issue and he can live a normal healthy life. One last thing. Although the breeder produced this (and I would like to know the pedigree on these dogs feel free to pm me to share so I will know this is a problem in the line) he/she is not responsible for your vet bills. I'm all for a breeder to do the right thing, but this happens. I'm not sure why you think they should reimburse you. It's the price we pay to have dogs.

by Independent on 11 November 2012 - 17:11

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RE: Any experience with bHCG injections to enhance descension?

Even if you did administer the injections and it was successful, this dog could still be at higher risk to produce cryprotprchid. 
I am aware of several cases of testicles dropping up to 4 months of age but it is rare.
A pup should never be sold without a health check-up and testicles being checked by a licensed Vet and documentation of it being done.
If one or both testicles are not down by the time the pup is sold, the Buyer should be aware of this prior to purchase and allowed to get their deposit back or move their deposit to another litter.  Anything short of this is unethical.  Either the breeder is incompetent or a flat out lie, and you, the Buyer should not have had this put on you without your prior knowledge and agreement.
If your contract or even emails sent to you from the breeder stated that your puppy you were paying for was show/breed quality and you were shipped a cryptorchid puppy, that is false advertisement and the Breeder should be held accountable for all cost incurred for you gas, time, shipping, shots, food, vet check-ups, and possibly even emotional stress (getting attached to pup then having to let let it go).

It is not the cryprotprchid that is such a huge issue (which is a minor health issue compared to the many other non-fixable health issues), it is the fact that you were not notified of this ahead of time in order to allow you to move your deposit to another pup that was breed/show quality.  Even if you were purchasing a pet to be neutered, you should still be notified ahead of time and allowed to discuss other options or lower price.

If the breeder said it was down when they shipped it, then ask for the Vet record to proved this.  Otherwise it is just hear-say.  And even if it did suck back up why is that your fault and you be stuck with holding on to a pup for months to see if it goes back down.

by rtdmmcintyre on 11 November 2012 - 19:11

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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 08:29 pm
The only thing you may be entitled to would be replacement.  even in a court of law your not going to get more.  first of all they don't have to prove they didn't know, you would have to prove that they did.  If every communication wasn't in writing then you don't have proof.  I works out much better for you and them if you try to keep every thing on a friendly level. 

by Killshot on 11 November 2012 - 20:11

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Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:19 pm
Many thx all...FYI, I do have it in writing that the "a legitimate vet" (and I do have his name) "examined him and said all was unremarkable".  So either this vet is incompetent, dishonest, or both of them are dishonest.  I know it happens, but under the circumstances I am inclined to ask for a 50% refund, vet bills, and cost of neutering (since we had agreed that he was breeding stock and would NOT be neutered).  The alternative is to simply take a replacement with vet bills reimbursed.  

I do indeed think the vet bills should be paid due to the explicit misrepresentation.  Miss one, yes.  Miss both, no.  He is very well know around here, so I think he will be reasonable.

We will see what happens as we are getting together Tuesday to negotiate.  

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