Main > Brindle German Shepherd Dog (88 replies)

by GSD Lineage on 16 October 2012 - 14:10

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I still see all black as Dominant. K is on another location and has to do with pattern. I'm still behind on brindle though. Would it be hidden on a red/buff/cream/white, the way sable, bi color and saddle are? I still see a lot of web sites failing to explain that solid and black are 2 different things :-).

On the dogs from this database that were linked to, Beowulf is the only brindle with linebred decendands we can see. Too bad we don't have All the dogs ever born registered with pictures on this site. :-)

I would not be surprized if a brindle showed up in the GSD today. Hopefully they will document it well and we all get to read up and see pictures.

by beetree on 16 October 2012 - 15:10

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What about this dog?  Friedo vom Schlabendorf 
 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=491738

by GSD Lineage on 16 October 2012 - 16:10

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Good find Beetree,


Friedo looks to not have any descendants .... Too bad we have no image of his dam. He also looks to have a sadle with the brindle on the tan parts when the contrast is inceased on the image. Today I read they call that "Trindle" for Black/Tan/Brindle. some posts on this thread are great but you have me doing  a lot of homework. The color testing lab sites don't allways tell us everything they know either.

by Elkoorr on 16 October 2012 - 16:10

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All the genetics and possibilities make my head spin....LOL If one goes by the chart from Vetgen, a hidden brindle could be possible....at least thats what I read out of it.

I wrote them to see what test of their list for GSD coat color testing they suggest would show if there is the possibility of a hidden brindle. See if they write back; I might just send the girl in for fun. I know one thing for sure, she is purebred GSD.....nobody jumped the fence here....LOL

by beetree on 16 October 2012 - 16:10

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I would love to know if any "proven" as claimed, currently living, brindle GSD's, can be traced back to "von der Krone" origins. Thinking  Also, I say that's where the reverse mask has a start, too. That's my theory any way. Clever  And I think those dogs were a strong originator of the herding genetics/instincts for the breed.  I would love to be corrected if somebody knows about this.

by GSD Lineage on 16 October 2012 - 17:10

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A thread could be started on reverse marks. I knows others have spoken of it before.
The following dogs in the US had it
Jem of Penllyn 
H
ollamor's Judd
O
na of Edgetowne
G
ernda's Ludwig
a
nd
I saw it a lot in the DDR lines and Working lines.
They also have some good looking dark sables with lighter circles around their eyes like Lord's Dam.
Lord vom Gleisdreieck

Note those Bicolors with lighter masks. 
Elkoor, If you test please let us know what you find :-)

by Elkoorr on 16 October 2012 - 17:10

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I klicked by no specific order throughmy bitches pedigree to find this dog wayyyyy back. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=976
It not only looks like he has some brindle showing on his hind legs, but in the comments it is mentioned a wavy spinal coat. What is so interesting about it, my bitch shows exactly that decribed wavy spinal coat, which forms a zick-zack  /\/\/\/ line over her back. She is also the mother of my striped pup.

by BlackthornGSD on 16 October 2012 - 18:10

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Brindle + aa (recessive black) - dog will be solid black (recessive black does not allow the production of phaeomelanin in the coat)

Except for "bleedthrough" blacks... Do you think bleedthroughs are actually brindle? Even so, what explains the parents of said dogs *not* showing any brindle (even if the parents aren't black)?

I still don't think that we'd see the brindle coloring "hiding" in black GSDs--because there are very few dogs who have a full line of solid black ancestors. And the brindle shows up--in some way--in all the other agouti patterns. So it doesn't make sense that it would "hide" that way--you'd see it in every litter, just about. I think you'd see it as an odd looking sable, too, in sable pups.

In addition, most brindle GSDs that are photographed come from either black-tan parentage or unknown parentage. The lines that carry the most incidence of recessive black don't seem to be throwing brindle pups... So, for most cases, I think it's not a case of a normal transmission of the Kbr gene down through generations of GSDs--I think this is extremely unlikely. I suspect either mutations or a recent brindle ancestor (Dutch shepherd, especially, nowadays) in almost every case of brindle "GSDs".

Christine

by Elkoorr on 16 October 2012 - 18:10

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Got an answer back from VetGen (fast!) and ordered the suggested test. Now the waiting begins....LOL

by GSD Lineage on 16 October 2012 - 19:10

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Blackthorn, the link to that article was good and explained a lot. (took me while to understand it though)
1. red/cream dogs will never express brindle but can carry it and it will be seen in their black base progeny.
This means a white cream GSD could hide the brindle. Great Danes do not carry RED. They are black based so brinddle can't hide on them.
White/Cream shepherds can hide patterns like bicolor and brindle.
3. Some brindles turn all black as they get older. (Tricky)
4. the role any/all genes have in the amount of black in the brindle is not yet understood. 

by GSDlovergirl on 16 October 2012 - 19:10

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In addition, most brindle GSDs that are photographed come from either black-tan parentage or unknown parentage. The lines that carry the most incidence of recessive black don't seem to be throwing brindle pups... So, for most cases, I think it's not a case of a normal transmission of the Kbr gene down through generations of GSDs--I think this is extremely unlikely. I suspect either mutations or a recent brindle ancestor (Dutch shepherd, especially, nowadays) in almost every case of brindle "GSDs".

In modern GSDs - particularly those animals with untraceable pedigree - it's possible that it's a dutch shepherd influence. However, one must remember that the Dutchie, GSD, and Belgian Shepherds more or less are believed to have shared the same "shepherd" type dogs in the beginning. It's just the different clubs aimed for different traits but the genes would have been there from the beginning.



Kind of like the St. John's Dog - said to be the founder of most retrievers and Newfoundlands. The difference in the descending / modern dogs depended entirely upon what the breeders wanted. However, you can occasionally come up with odd balls. Such as how you can get brindle Labs if you look carefully - they are black & tan brindle. Picture of a brindled lab
http://labradornet.com/brindletanpoint.html
http://labradornet.com/sonny_e.html


Soft Coated Wheatens for example are almost 100% supposed to be wheaten in coloring. Their pups look very agouti like until about 1 year of age.\
However, and as apparent with this guy from european working lines, that isn't the case. Last I heard this dog had matured as a black & silver/tan. Not what is deemed standard and yet from pedigreed parents. Don't ask for the email as this was a while ago when I was doing genetics on terriers and their mis-marked pups. You will probably never find what I discovered about Wheatens and their mismarks on the internet... I had to email dozens upon dozens of breeders to even get about 15-18 responses back...


The only thing I can say is that for being one of the most popular dog breeds there really isn't that much research into the GSD itself and its genetics. People accept the given standard and would prefer not to talk of the mismarks, the oddities, etc. Just sell them off as pets and not mention a thing about them - ruins the breeders' rep after all.

by GSDlovergirl on 16 October 2012 - 19:10

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Also I'd like to point out the various brindles. It's not just ah brindle... and that's that.

boxershe is a reverse brindle, the darkest sort of brindle you can get
http://www.saboxer.co.za/boxer_colours.html

mix long hair
http://www.greatdogsite.com/photos/gallery/Gollie/?index=1

dutchies
http://www.dutchshepherdforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1509

Some like the dutchies are obvious brindle but at passing glance neither the mix breed nor the boxer are obvious brindle dogs.

by Dawulf on 16 October 2012 - 20:10

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Elkoorr, you'll have to keep us updated on how the test turns out. I found that same dog back in Qira's pedigree (she is from the same kennel your girl is I believe). Qira's dad was a solid black with bleedthrough, and she also has that wavy coat you mentioned, but has no bleedthrough. Interesting!!

by jaggirl47 on 16 October 2012 - 21:10

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Elkoorr,

I had my bitch tested through them to find out if she was genetically black or a melanistic bi-color. She had tan toes as young as 8 weeks and has increasingly shown more tan. She looks like a bi.
She is not a brindle. Her tests came back as kyky/aa, a full recessive black dog. When I spoke with the lab they informed me that they believe bleedthru is a gene possibly passed by the sire. They have not yet found that out.

by BlackthornGSD on 16 October 2012 - 23:10

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The reason that Labs can have brindles crop up is that Kb can hide Kbr--so you could have generations of KbKbr ancestors with no brindle showing up until bred to another KbKbr and then you get KbrKbr -- brindle puppies. And there is no doubt that the foundation of the breed showed brindles--but it's easy to breed away from a dominant color--you just don't breed to it. So, how would the gene "hide" in generations of non-brindle ancestors?

Christine.

by Elkoorr on 17 October 2012 - 01:10

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Christine, would it be possible that it is hidden in sables? I mean, genetically might be brindle, but our visual perception its just another sable as not every brindle is clearly striped? I dont think its hidden in the recessive blacks though.

by BlackthornGSD on 17 October 2012 - 01:10

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I just can't see generations of sable covering brindle up--I do think a brindle sable is less distinctly brindle, but I think it would be an unusual looking sable. And again, you'd see the brindle cropping up in black-tan children/siblings/parents, no?

Christine

by Elkoorr on 17 October 2012 - 04:10

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It seems that a dog can have kbr on the K locus, but then its not necessarily expressed on the A locus? If the dog is Ay on the A locus than kbr if present, could be surpressed by the sable coloring. Unsure though about at dogs that have kbr present, how would this be expressed, if at all?

Dawulf, I found a pic that shows the wavy stripe pattern on Tunguska.

by BlackthornGSD on 17 October 2012 - 05:10

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Unsure though about at dogs that have kbr present, how would this be expressed, if at all?

Apparently, this is a saddle back dog with brindle markings on the legs. I would think a sable GSD would have the brindle on the tan areas (legs) too.... but not sure.

Christine

by GSDlovergirl on 17 October 2012 - 09:10

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The reason that Labs can have brindles crop up is that Kb can hide Kbr--so you could have generations of KbKbr ancestors with no brindle showing up until bred to another KbKbr and then you get KbrKbr -- brindle puppies. And there is no doubt that the foundation of the breed showed brindles--but it's easy to breed away from a dominant color--you just don't breed to it. So, how would the gene "hide" in generations of non-brindle ancestors?

Black in GSD works the same way, if not worst given as GSDs have two types of black. Labs have one, Kb.


Similarly it is unknown what brindle + agouti/sable makes and/or appears as so it is possible that the darker or more heavily marked sable GSDs are carrying brindle somewhere in their genetics.

Bi-colors and blanket types can likewise hide brindle unless really examined due to the small amount of tan that is actually visible in either coloration - a black & tan would be glaringly brindle.
 

True black sables are said to be some sort of a co-dominance between aw / sable and a / recessive black. 

The website - facebook - claims this to be a DDR black sable.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151017085004019&set=o.70626018114&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

An animal marked that richly is going to disguise a lot unlike closely examined.

 

Similarly most show line GSDs are highly and heavily inbred - not to start anything - but I've seen sires on Pedigree that has supposedly sired hundreds of offspring. A high inbreeding cofactor is going to eliminate unusual traits - brindle - in show line dogs as they are bred to fit the standard as close as possible.

 

Old line patrol dogs / DDR - Czech \ and high level working animals / bloodlines are more than likely to carry unusual traits - brindle - than show animals.


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