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ForumsMain > Working is working and show is show (57 replies)
Working is working and show is show by OldNewGuyMC on 15 November 2006 - 16:12 |
| You see this type of comment everywhere. So I have a question for all of you knowledgeable people of this board. Let's say, I'm a person looking for a pup who I will train to his SCHH3 and if all turns out well I want to compete with him in regional or even national trials. Also, when we are not training, I want to enter him in SV type conformation shows and have him be competitive there as well. What would you advise me??????? |
by Kougar on 15 November 2006 - 16:18 |
| Do you buy lottery tickets???? Do you expect to win??? or do you realize that it happens, but is a chance in a million???? Since we can not go back in time to the 70's - Pick one or the other - |
by neohaus on 15 November 2006 - 16:23 |
| I have both lines and...yikes..can't believe I am gonna say this...BUT.....they are all GSD's!!! I have showlines that work and a soft working line...so it to me is a matter of physical appearance. I find it very crazy that the show and working people claim to have different dogs...but it is the reality of it.... Although I do agree there are many physical and mental differences, you have to keep in mind it is the same for humans...doesn't make one better than the other, only different. |
neohaus by OldNewGuyMC on 15 November 2006 - 16:24 |
| OK, that's one for "it's impossible". Who else? |
by Kougar on 15 November 2006 - 16:31 |
| The KEY to this question was that the OP wanted to be competitive to EXCEL - to go to National levels - IMO You can DABBLE in both - with higher sucess in one of the venues - but the question was could you EXCEL in both venues with the same dog - the working dogs who V at the Sieger show in Germany are at the BOTTOM of the ranks, the show dogs do not place in top ranks at the BSP...the medium quality dog of either type that you do both with is going to be ---- medium in results! |
by djc on 15 November 2006 - 16:50 |
| Ahhh... but there are show dogs that CAN do well in both AND working dogs that CAN do well in both. They are not one in a million. A person just has to know the lines and look around. Just because they CAN does not mean that the owner CARES to do both. Please refer to my comments at: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/56303.html#56730 Rather than me going through writing all of this down again.... Debby |
djc by OldNewGuyMC on 15 November 2006 - 17:14 |
| Thank you djc, I missed that post of yours from Sept. I totally agree with your position. I don't mean to rehash tired old arguments but here is a post right next to this one from a new person asking about buying a pup. You immediately see the divisions surface. I think it is a sad state of affairs for our beloved breed that a new person has to be told that the chances of finding a GSD that can do both is about the same as winning the lottery. Kougar, you are right in what you say, but we shouldn't accept the situation. WE have driven this breed to extremes. The GSD used to be known as the Olympic decathlon winner. Maybe couldn't throw the hammer-throw as far as the specialized hammer-thrower (Rottie?), maybe couldn't run quite as fast as the sprinter (greyhound?) but could do it ALL in a way that was far above average and far above what any "specialist" could do. That's the true GSD! We have developed a specialist on the one hand (working) that "flies through the air" and "hits like a freight train". We have developed another specialist that has a beautiful coat, a tireless gait and generally less drive. Hammer-throwers and sprinters. But I want a decathlon champion. Does that mean that he only performs at a "medium level"? Only by OUR definition. WE have determined that the extreme specialties is what is desirable and that the decathlon champ is not what we want in a GSD by the shaping of the rules in both fractured dysfunctional factions of our breed! |
by djc on 15 November 2006 - 17:25 |
| Thanks "Guy". Great points! There are just not many of us true believers around. One day one of us will bring some successes (note: not just one in a million) to both venues. They may not WIN both, but they WILL excell in both, if I have my way. Call us dreamers or whatever you will, but at least we are trying to make the breed as it once was. One dog for BOTH work and show. ONe thing I wanted to add to the statement above: "Just because they CAN does not mean that the owner CARES to do both." I would like to finish that statement with: And to take the absence of one or the other from the national venues is NOT a statement that their dogs can not do it. They just do not have the desire to train and trial/show in both. Maybe someday that will change. I hope so!!! Debby |
by blueskyekennels on 15 November 2006 - 17:33 |
| OldNewGuyMC, I am assuming you are refering to the comment I made, "Working is working and show is show." I will admit I made that comment. All I meant by it is that the Gorgeous showlines seem to excel in the shows and the working lines seem to excel in the type of work that their owners pick for them. Before I get jumped on, I'm NOT saying that a dog can't do both, hell, more power to you if your dog can! If I KNEW that I could buy a show/work mixed line puppy that could excel in both, I'd buy that dog in a HEART BEAT. But MY PERSONAL PREFERANCE is a working dog...just as some prefer a Show dog. The GSD is a dog of many purposes, but I think we can all admit it is still slightly segregated...If it weren't we wouldn't have use of the terms, "WORKINGLINE" "SHOWLINE" "AMERICAN" or "GERMAN" the dog would be an all in one. Okay, the point I am making here is that different lines specailize in different things. OPINION WAS ASKED, and I thought I would give it. That was only MY OPINION, it may not be yours, or the next persons, but I believe I stated MORE THAN ONCE in that post that it was ONLY MY OPINION. |
by Brandoggy on 15 November 2006 - 17:53 |
| Well I don't think its impossible...look at Eagle he is multiple sch3 + a billion other titles and has a V show rating. But I don't think many "working Line" people will put their dogs in the ring-but it can happen- |
by neohaus on 15 November 2006 - 18:27 |
| I wouldn't go as far as to classify the American and German all in one group....American lines are so far from the standard. I hear the Am. lines will be called something else soon???? Great comments everyone. I am sure we all strive for the same thing.... |
by OldNewGuyMC on 15 November 2006 - 18:42 |
| Krista, my title for this post is generic. You see the statement all the time, I didn't even know you had made it. Chill. I smiled at this comment though: quote: "The GSD is a dog of many purposes, but I think we can all admit it is still slightly segregated." I think you win the cement-bicycle-award for the biggest understatement of 2006. lol! |
by Fred on 15 November 2006 - 18:47 |
| Just remember how many show line breeders actually produce competitive show quality. And how many working line breeders produce competitive national sport dog. There is a lot lost in the middle, so it would be quite a challenge to get both. |
by eichenluft on 15 November 2006 - 18:47 |
| My Eagle is V in conformation and many-times Schh3 at Regional and National level. However, I would not show him in conformation (and haven't except for breed surveys and conformation rating purposes) except for "fun" - as even though he is V, he is not competitive against the show-line dogs - just how it is. He is beautiful for a working-line dog. Just using him as an example. I have a show-line female I breed, because she can work and has a very strong "working-line-like" temperament. High drives and the whole package. I breed her to show-line dogs that can work. So maybe her puppies could work at the level you want, but maybe they can't. Would still be a gamble. They could show though. Eagle's puppies (just as an example) are as good in structure if not better than he is. They are working lines and should be able to work at high levels and have correct structure. But could they show and be competitive? Maybe not. Still a gamble. I agree, pick what you want to do the most, if you mainly want to work your dog get a working-line, get one from KKl-1 parents if you want to also "dabble" in showing your dog - for fun only. If you would rather show your dog but want a dog that can also be fun in the work, but maybe not be suitable for higher levels of competition, then get a show-line pup from parents that are good in the work. molly |
by neohaus on 15 November 2006 - 19:00 |
| Fred... A lot of us "showline breders" do produce a substaial amount of "show prospects". Question is do they get that chance or do the owners keep them as pets? Same for working dog breeders...probably just as many are capable and would excel- given the chance. Molly... I am a friend of Tammy's and I agree Eagle is an AWESOME specimen!!! And I do agree,,,,why show a working line dog except for his/her koer if not necessary. Unless of course you can in Eagle's case.... |
by wscott00 on 15 November 2006 - 19:17 |
| OldNewGuyMC - please define competitive. For me its as good chance to win... PERIOD. not "well of my dog tracks good today, or if he doesnt mouth the dumbell the way he usually does. But being able to finish between 1-5. And id say the same for the show ring, if you go to show after show and never finish inthe top, then you arent comptetive. There is a huge difference between competing at the nationals and being competitive. Ive shown at a few national and regional events and not once did i stand a chance in hell of winning. So you can find a dog that will compete in both but you will be hard pressed to find a dog that can WIN in both. And if you did, i highly doubt it would produce dogs that could win in both |
by OldNewGuyMC on 15 November 2006 - 19:37 |
| Scott, you are accurately describing the way things are. But do they HAVE to be that way? Why is there such a wide acceptance of the way it is? The self evident answer, I guess is, because people by far are happy with the way it is. Most people, it looks like, are happy with GSD's specializing in either show or working. But then, why do you hear so much discontent about the split? Are the ones that are unhappy with the breed splitting off into two almost distinct breeds just a small minority who is being vocal? |
by wscott00 on 15 November 2006 - 19:46 |
| i can only answer that by saying.. "i didnt make the rules, i just play the game". For me the game is sch. i want to make the world team some day. And in know fomr past competitors, that a VA show dog is less likely to compete w/ V -SG working dogs in sch. If i chose to play in the show ring, i would never take pur working line dog into the ring. Why because the rules say i can win. So it boils down to what you want to play. I pesonally dont care about conformation or KKL, because it will not help me get to my ultimate goal. now im sure some one will say if the dog isnt built correctly it wont be able to work. But my line of thought is my dog must be built just fine 'cuz he works and doesnt come up lame, vs my dog could work all day if he wanted too. |
by 4pack on 15 November 2006 - 19:47 |
| Old Guy I get it too! So many want both all rolled up in one package but if you start talking about mixing working blood with show, people start throwing things at you...lol kinda funny yet sad. How the hell else do you people suppose we get there? |
4pack by OldNewGuyMC on 15 November 2006 - 20:08 |
| Scott, that's an honest reply, and I can respect it. But, some of us are at the point where we are thinking more about the state of the breed than about individual accomplishments. Yes, you are absolutely right, a show dog, generally speaking with possibly a few exceptions, will not win the BSP. And a working dog stands as much chance of becoming Sieger in the show ring as I have in being selected an astronaut. But as you say, you don't make the rules, you just play by them. So who's making the rules? That's the ones I have a problem with. Using my earlier analogy of the Olympics. Whoever makes the rules thinks they can make the hammer-throw (working ring) more interesting by increasing the weight being thrown. So, slowly the weight is increased over the years where only giant supermen can throw it (dogs that can't live in the house, are hyperactive, may be handler aggressive,etc etc) . Now, the decathlon athletes can barely pick it up, much less throw it. But they can do everything else a hell of a lot better than the hammer throwers. Who's a better athlete? But now there is a split. Are we happy with that? Or were we better off when the decathlon athletes could do it all because of the way the rules were structured?? |
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