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Main > breeding a daughter to a father? opinions? (22 replies)

by RellikMalinois on 12 August 2012 - 18:08

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I am new to mals and breeding but I just got an email from someone letting me know of a future litter. The breeding is a female Mal to her father. I understand line breeding is virtually breeding relatives but i thought it was more distant relatives. Is breeding father and daughter good? Bad? Id appreciate some insight! thanks!

by Hutchins on 12 August 2012 - 19:08

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In my 30+yr of dogs, I was told if a breeder wants a puppy like its sire, the daughter that most resembles her sire physically and temperamental should be bred to him. However, I have seen people get so blinded that all they see is the good and what they want, but fail to see the faults that they will also be doubling up on.   With that said, in my opinion, doing a father/daughter breeding should be left up to the experts that have been breeding specific lines for many year. That way they will know exactly what to expect. Although I have seen many many good prospective father to daughter breeding, I do not think I would ever do it.  There are so many awesome breedings out there that are not inbreedings, I just see no need to do such a breeding.

 Remember, mother nature always has the "last say so" and some times she has a sense of humor and will throw a curve ball.  JMO

by Western Rider on 12 August 2012 - 19:08

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Insight.

Would you want your daughter to breed to her father. 

If you say yes then go for the pup. 

If you wouldn't then leave that litter alone.


Insight used


by Til on 12 August 2012 - 19:08

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It´s not allowed in the SV!

by Jenni78 on 12 August 2012 - 19:08

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Human incest is different than canine inbreeding. Some of the most successful, influential dogs of all time have been inbred. It's not something I would take on lightly, but I can't say that no one should ever do it. It's not that black and white. 

by Western Rider on 12 August 2012 - 20:08

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Jenni not saying it is the same.  Just trying to point out that if you are new and have to ask then use some common Insight.

Been in dogs and horses for a lot of years.   I tell people to use the same type of analogy when people give them  training advice.   

I can remember when one of the newest training methods for horses was to hook them up in a harness, lift them off the ground and spin them around.  This was to teach them that they did something wrong in the arena.  Like they figured that out.

I have liked some half sibs bred together but needs to be done by experts, where as most really close breeding turn out to be  accidents not done with thought and purpose.





by Jenni78 on 12 August 2012 - 21:08

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I know you weren't, WR. I was just saying it's not the same because that's everyone's first thought, and if you look at some top winning dogs of all time, yikes...their family tree has no branches! So, I think people should keep an open mind and not automatically recoil and judge, while admitting that VERY few people have the kind of knowledge needed to embark on such a venture. 

by ziegenfarm on 12 August 2012 - 21:08

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there is a better solution.  an old saying goes like this:  let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam.

assuming that your female is worthy of breeding and has much to offer, why not look at half brothers of the sire----perhaps something
out of a really nice dam line.  you might save yourself a generation of breeding by going with something that is the direction you intend to
go anyway.

pjp

by Ramage on 13 August 2012 - 00:08

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It would have to be one extraordinary dog for me to agree with him being bred back to his offspring. Otherwise, no. JMHO. Inbreeding brings out the best AND the worst in lines. If you don't know what you're doing, it's not going to go well. Again JMHO

by workingdogz on 13 August 2012 - 01:08

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Ramage wrote:
If you don't know what you're doing, it's not going to go well. 


Agreed, and, I'll add, it will go even worse if you are too ignorant to
know you DON'T know you have no clue what you are doing.

With the GSD population being so vast and plentiful, does one
really think it neccessary to do a breeding like this? Does one
truly believe the dog they have is so SUPER awesome they need
to do this? 

And yes, I know the OP posted about Malinois, but there are some on 
this very board that are doing the same type of breeding with GSD. 
Albeit that one is from untested/untitled dogs 

by Jenni78 on 13 August 2012 - 01:08

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Who is doing this with GSDs on here? 

by Sunsilver on 13 August 2012 - 03:08

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where as most really close breeding turn out to be  accidents not done with thought and purpose.




EXACTLY! I am willing to bet this is an 'oops' litter!

In any case, if I were the OP, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. There are many, many good reasons the SV does not permit this sort of mating.
 

by RellikMalinois on 13 August 2012 - 11:08

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Good to know thanks guys, i think i will pass on this litter!

by Gustav on 13 August 2012 - 12:08

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Mals are not German Shepherds, so that's one consideration It should only be done by an extremely knowledgable breeder that preferably has had the same dogs for at least three generations At this point in time I really think Mals have less genetic baggage than GS. Good Luck!

by Red Sable on 13 August 2012 - 20:08

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"i think i will pass on this litter!"

Wise move, me thinks!

by MarioF on 13 August 2012 - 21:08

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If I like the dog. I would not hesitate to get a dog from an inbreeding.  As Gustav said mals don't have some of the issues as GSD.

by wanderer on 13 August 2012 - 22:08

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Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has their head up their proverbial butt.  Why do you think we have so very many nasty genetic problems in the GSD that we just can't seem to get rid of that many lines carry?  Duh!
Must be done by experts?!!  Should not be done by anyone.  A real expert in genetics and recessives would not do this. 

by MarioF on 13 August 2012 - 22:08

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Has it ever occurred to you that the Maybe the GSD is where it is at is due to the SV? Their Koer, thier rules on breeding. Over 100 years of breeding and still can not fix the issues that plague the GSD. As the  Keepers of the breed need to be open mined to fix the garbage being produced.


Coming from a APBT background. Most of the best producing dogs in the APBT history, were inbred and had a COI (Wright's coefficent) of the high 20's -30's, some have in the high 30's low 40's. It is a not a quick fix. It is a long term goal and you need to be able to be truthful ad deal with the crap that pop up. 

Line breeding is just a weak form of inbreeding. When I hear the dog is linebred on  Fero for ex.  who is 5-5 in the pedigree. In a 5 generation pedigree (62 dogs), his genetic worth will be minimal at best.

But Wander maybe you are right. Imagine if you start inbreeding on some of the SL GSD, imagine what will surface.

Relik you should research some of the working mal kennels. You will be surprised how they are breeding.

by wanderer on 14 August 2012 - 01:08

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You may indeed get one or two exceptional individuals, question is, what are you going to do with the genetic manure that shows up?  PTS as pups? PTS as one or two years old or sell to some unsuspecting boobs who don't know what they are getting into?

by Jenni78 on 14 August 2012 - 02:08

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Mario, APBTs are my frame of reference, too, and what I had in mind when I posted. 

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