Belgian Malinois > Asking, no begging, for sincere Belgian Malinois advice (72 replies)
by BabyEagle4U on 03 August 2012 - 16:15
|Did you read the thread Laura posted ? lol|
That thread was posted a week or two before the OP here ... it's a good read if you have the time. Talks about children and dogs together alone.
by Jivan on 03 August 2012 - 16:27
|Hi BabyEagle4U: I read it when it was posted. I wrote and said thank you for the post and that "I just read the thread." I appreciated it then and appreciate it now. It is good advice. Part of what started this is I originally asked if a dog trained and socialized for two years from being a puppy could be somewhere in the house with what would be my then 11 year olds who are very respectful of animals if I am in another room. The answer was no and I understood the reasoning. Asomich apparently becomes upset with questions and lashes out.|
by Jivan on 03 August 2012 - 17:00
|Asomich: Just saw your posts from page two. I missed them since I was only on page three. (Amazing how these things generate a life of their own) That actually is an excellent suggestion. (And no I am not being sarcastic) Thank your for the thoughts and sorry for the misunderstanding. Truthfully I just felt like a dude tryng to research something who was kind of getting reemed for asking what seems like stupid questions to you but still I had to ask. . You may have noticed on some of my later posts that I pretty much ruled out the mal. based on yours and others advice. That is why I wrote "I will defer to experts with real experience and hold up for now. Sigh, maybe some day..." That is why I was confused when it was being suggested I was going full speed ahead with all of this and not taking any advice. All that being said.... The latest development: I found a trainer (in my town!) who was the first to bring a mal in the area. He was one of the guys with dogs who went to NY after 9/11. He has mals and trains them. He actually works with my vet! We are meeting and talking and e-mailing and I am getting excellent advice. So, this may happen and it may not. In the interim I would like to think I can ask people her for advice AND have direct personal experience. (Like babysitting a Mal or spending time here locally with them) Sound good?? I would like to think everyone on here is an animal lover and we are on the same side. Peace....j|
ps My wife is beautiful and brilliant---but she is a tough trial lawyer and one time nationally ranked tennis player---She could beat my ass!
by asomich on 03 August 2012 - 17:35
"Part of what started this is I originally asked if a dog trained and socialized for two years from being a puppy could be somewhere in the house with what would be my then 11 year olds who are very respectful of animals if I am in another room. "
I am still trying to find this quote within this thread. I was going by what you said within THIS thread. I have not been looking at your posts on other threads. This thread does not tell us that you were planning to leave the pup loose with the kids after they have reached 11 years and after the pup has been socialized. If that is so, then that makes a mal pup more doable. If you have had some time to think about it and are willing to change your expectations and environement, then that's great. If you have a trainer to help you, even better. Get him to help you find a pup for your environment. The right selection is the most critical step.
I breed mals. I am very good at socializing them. I taught public school math and science. I'm pretty good at teaching adults too. Dogs are real easy to teach - no baggage. I am an analytical person. I am very serious about this breed and where I place my dogs. I just rehomed my first breeding bitch who is very social and good with little dogs. There are two teenagers and three yorkies at the new house. The new owner has had 2 retired schH gsds - has a presence with dogs and even knows the Germand commands. This is her first mal and she is quickly learning that it is a whole different breed. We went through the whole list of what could go wrong. We walked her property to look at the best place to set up the kennel run. We introduced the dog to the swimming pool. We dog proofed her house. Ha ha - Part of that was to pull up the blinds on the window that we know the dog will look out of by standing on the back of the couch. I am spending alot of time with the new owner answering her questions and plan to train with her to get her jump started. the new owner is going to continue training and titling her. I will take my mama dog back in a heartbeat if the new owner has any issues. And this is a bitch that I trust in a social situation. I wouldn't dare trust my male or a couple of the pups from this mama dog in this environment. It has been hard to find my girl a loving home that can handle her even with her sweet temperament and age (3 years). I'm still waiting to see how this weekend goes with all of the lawn work and bbq's in the neighbors backyards, because this dog is territorial and alerts very quickly.
by Jivan on 03 August 2012 - 18:31
|It was all in THIS thread---different comments but this actual thread. At one point I said my daughters would be nine when the puppy arrived. I later asked about them being in a different part of the home than me with the dog AFTER socialization and AFTER he is no longer a puppy. (I factored in for that to be about a two year process, thus they would be 11. Granted I did not specify two years and that is probably where the confusion stems from) I thought I did mention the two year part when I gave the badminton/balloon example. Maybe I didn't, but I noticed that comment is no longer in the thread. Where'd it go?! Not important but just curious..... Funny that you are a math teacher because I almost wrote earlier that it's a good thing you're not a teacher because your kids would be terrified of asking questions. But hey, that's all the past. My sisters are both teachers. If I go forward with this I may have found a pup for my environment, but I will ask about that in a bit.....Right now it is all up in the air.|
by asomich on 03 August 2012 - 18:43
The title does use the word "sincere" and I went by the info that you provided on this thread.
I almost wrote that I wouldn't be able to place a pup in a home where the owner is going to blow up so easily.
Once again, I apologize for assuming you would not want to socialize a malinois pup.
by Jivan on 03 August 2012 - 22:07
To suggest that the problem was I did not appreciate "sincere" advice is simply disingenuous. The great thing about a thread is that everything is in writing. If you read each post you will find that I thanked everyone profusely, including you, for their insight, even though most of it was advice against getting a mal. That is simply undeniable. The only problem came days later at the end of the thread when you distorted my words or took them out of context. I admittedly could have phrased a few things better (the two year part) and you admittedly made a mistake suggesting I had no interest in socializing a pup or was intent on leaving children alone with dogs even though I was simply asking a question. I don't know why we can't leave it at that. As I stated to you earlier, you know about mals and I am seeking mal advice. It would not seem this should be an adversarial exchange. There are certainly more productive ways to spend our time and the people on this thread have probably had enough anyway. If you feel to offer sincere advice and answer questions you can pm me as I suggested. If not we can simply wish each other luck. Anything other than that seems silly.
by asomich on 04 August 2012 - 02:02
Good luck with your new mal. Come back to the forum after a year and tell us all about it. Now go argue with your brilliant, beautiful trial lawyer wife!
by Jivan on 04 August 2012 - 03:21
|No arguing. Just watching phelps win yet again. Will keep you posted on potential mal. May be a month, year or never. If I do get one I will report monthly and give you some tips. Peace.|
by Pepvol on 04 August 2012 - 05:40
|Jivan , I feel for you because I have had to deal with a few " Snobs" myself . Asomich , I'm sure you think you're doing this fine breed a service by putting any newcomers to this breed in their place for actually just wondering if The Belgian Malinois can be more than just an attack trained dog , but breeders like you are what's wrong with this breed . From reading your posts , it's obvious you have a disdain to " show " Belgians ... maybe it's just that you like feeling that your breed is so exclusive that only genius's like yourself can tame this wild dog . I've alread had another breeder just like you tell me I need to get a collie instead of her Malinois , just because I told her my wife was a little intimidated by very large dogs . She , Like you asomich , are doing this breed a great disservice by thinking yourself , the police force , and the Marines... the only ones who can control and deserve this breed . I've met several great breeders so far , but there defintely does seem to be a large number of Belgian Malinois breeders out there who think it's fun to jump down anyone's throat who even considers their breed as a pet . I've trained Dogs my whole life , I had a Kennel for Rotweilers for years and years , I've trained Pit bulls , Bull Terriers , French Bull dogs , and many , many more breeds in my life . I grew up around Dog training , my dad for 25 years was known as the best breeder/ trainer of Bird hunting dogs for miles around . The breeder I'm talking about didn't even get to all that , she based everything on about 2 sentences . She didn't even get to the part where I had 11 acres with just my wife and myself , and a ton of experience with dogs . Just because I mentioned that my wife might have questions about getting a Belgian Malinois , she claimed that " some disreputable Breeder " would probably sell me one ... but not her !! Seriously guys , if you really do care about your breed , some of you guys need to learn how to treat newcomers wiith questions , and leave your ego of thinking you're the only one on earth who can handle this dog to yourself ! All you have to do is go to Youtube , punch in Belgian Malinois , and you'll see about a thousand videos of Bozos trying to get 8 week old Belgians to attack them . Is this really all you guys want your breed to be known for ?|
by asomich on 05 August 2012 - 02:01
by Jivan on 05 August 2012 - 03:41
I really appreciated and enjoyed your post. It was well written and made excellent points. I received a few private messages, e-mails and texts from people with very similar viewpoints. (who did not want to get sucked in to the forum abyss) Thank you for taking the time to write it.
For anyone who may want some expansion on Pepvol's insight and comments, you may want to check out Ivan Balabanov's website. Ivan, whom many consider the foremost expert on Malinois and is without a doubt a world class trainer, had some very pointed remarks on what has been discussed here. Log on to ivanbalabanov.com and check out the "Malinois FAQ. " NO ONE would accuse Ivan of producing the "showline" Mals. that Asomich so deeply abhors, and Ivan wrote the following:
Some trainers and breeders try to convince you that only an experienced person should own one, but guess what, that is not true! It always amazes me to hear such statements, I have come to the conclusion that such statements are not directed to the Malinois breed. These trainers and breeders want to make a statement to YOU that they are more capable than you, it elevates the trainer/breeder status in the eyes of the person that dared to ask them about their Malinois--In short it makes the trainer SPECIAL while convincing you that the Malinois is not for everyone. Contrary to what you read and hear on Internet Forums Malinois WILL forgive training mistakes and move on faster than most breeds.
There is alot more but you get the point. Are some of Asomich's comments/judgements becoming a bit more in focus? These are Ivan Balabanov's words, not mine. I personally spoke with Ivan on the phone not long ago and he laughed out loud when I repeated some of what was said. This is NOT to say mal. ownership should be taken lightly or without serious research and support. It is, however, saying there are no stupid questions and we should all consider the source, especially when laced with such intolerance and ridicule.
I am again considering whether or not to get a mal. but when and if I do I hope I can write here and on other forums for serious and thoughtful advice.
Thanks again, Pepvol! Whoever you are, you rock!
by asomich on 05 August 2012 - 04:17
by Jivan on 05 August 2012 - 04:44
|Okay Asomich. And you really need to see how all the Malinois advice you dispense goes over with everyone and then come back in a year. Talk to you in August 2013. Have a great year.|
by lkrohn on 06 August 2012 - 15:55
|Of course you can. I purchased a puppy from Mohawk Malinois a few weeks ago. The reason I waited so long for one of his pupps was the fact that yes they have great drive but more important to me was their social skills. I have been around all of his adults and they are absolutely stable and great around kids. I took my 6 and 2 year old children to pick up our pup and I never hesitated to let them out with his adults running around. Don't listen to all the negative statements about the dark side of the Mals. It is bad breeding and bad training that makes these dogs unstable. You can see my pup at my website. I will continue to post videos of him as he grows and you will see him doing everything in every type of situation and yes with plenty of kids involved.|
by Jivan on 06 August 2012 - 16:21
I actually spoke to and e-mailed Mohawk John quite a few times. He seems like a great guy and very knowledgeable about the breed. I almost drove to Kentucky to get one of his dogs but the wife was not so hot on bringing home a nine month old! Still working on that end of it....
I am meeting a local trainer this week who has mals to spend some time with them and to see how it goes.
Look forward to more videos/experiences of your mal. Thanks again.....
by malndobe on 06 August 2012 - 16:30
|Ikrohn, I don't think it's really accurate to say that because you can handle a Malinois as a pet and around your kids, the average pet home can. I only briefly looked at your website (the front page) but you are a professional trainer. That right there means you are not the average pet home.|
Can a pet home live happily with a working line Malinois? Yes, as long as they are ACTIVE, either have the experience level to provide the training the dog requires, or are willing to seek that out and commit to it, and it's the right pup from the right litter (lower drive, laid back personality).
Can the average pet home live happily with a Malinois? No, absolutely not. The first time the pup kicks into drive and grabs their ankle, or chases little Johnny through the yard and bites him they are going to freak out and either get rid of the pup, or stick it out in the backyard keeping it away from the family until it's older, untrained, unsocialized, and basically a destructive freak.
I am one of those working line breeders that now states on my website I won't place pups in pet homes. Is this a hard and fast rule, no. If a pet home comes to me and can prove that they might be a good home for one of my pups, I will still consider a placement, but they are going to jump through some hoops before I'll consider it, and very few pups out of a litter, if any, will be considered for that home. Why, because I'm tired of putting pups into non-Malinois experienced pet homes that sound like they plan to do it all the right way, only to find out later they only took the pup to two training sessions with the trainer because they got busy, quit taking the pup out in public because he'd try to chase joggers or bicyclists while they wanted to chat with friends over a coffee and ignore him, tossed him in the back yard because he "attacked" someone (ie 10 week old Malinois pup hanging off someone's ankle), ignored any and all advice they got from me or other experienced people because past dogs never needed to be trained and grew up well behaved, and at 6 months they are tired of dealing with him and want to return him. Unsocialized, untrained, and with other baggage. I will take back a dog from my breeding at any time, and work to rehab it and then rehome it. But as the breeder why would I risk putting a pup in a pet home, especially one with no Malinois experience, when I could put it in a working or performance home instead, where it can live as a pet, but with an experienced trainer who will routinely give the dog an outlet for it's drive and energy. Heck, even some of the experienced working/performance homes I've put pups in couldn't handle the pups drives or level of desire to bite. And they were pups I considered "medium" from the litter.
I've done a lot of Malinois education over the years, and one thing I don't do anymore is just let people meet the dogs when the dogs are on their best behavior. Way to many people see a well behaved Malinois out in public and think they are born that way, they have no idea how much training went into the dog, and how much exercise (mental and/or physical) the dog gets. Sure you can meet them, 1 or 2 at a time, when they are under control and behaving. But if you come to my house, and you aren't experienced with the breed, I will turn my entire pack loose at once, and usually they have been hanging out in the house or a bedroom sleeping so they are extra amped and ready to go when I do it >:-). If you can look at the speed and energy 5 or 6 Malinois can create and think "this is awesome, I want one of these" then this might actually be the breed for you. But if you look at it and get overwhelmed and starting thinking "how quickly can I get out of here", time to look for another breed :-) Most people I do this to, start looking for the polite exit. The few who don't, might actually get a pup at some point.
To the OP, don't take it personally, but the gut reaction of many working Malinois breeders when asked about Malinois as pets is an automatic "no" because of experiences like mine. And even the ones who will place them as pets, if they are being honest, will admit there is a difference between the pups in a litter they would place as a pet, and the pups they would place in a competitive working/performance home. Or if they breed enough, the litters they would place as pets vs the litters bred more for the working/performance homes.
by Jivan on 06 August 2012 - 17:22
I don't take it personally; I actually really appreciate your thoughts. Those are ALL great points and that is the exact type of info. I was seeking when asking for advice at the beginning off this thread. So thank you for the in depth answer. You definitely give one alot to think about.
One thing I was not clear on in your post: On your last paragraph you mentioned that a breeder might distinguish between a pup placed as a pet versus one in a working environment---The breeders I have spoken with have been briefed extensively about my situation and pretty much are stating their breed or a certain litter they have is more of an active home pet than competetive/working line dog. With this in mind do you still feel ANY mal from ANY litter from ANY breeder in ANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised?
I could not tell if you also meant that would be an automatic no. Thanks again!
by lkrohn on 06 August 2012 - 17:48
|To malndobe, I know what you are saying and I agree with you completely. I think most people should never own a Mal. My point to the person who asked the question was with the right dog and right training with the right lifestyle you could have a great life with a mal as a pet. I have people ask me all the time for advice on getting a mal and I don't think i have ever encouraged one of them to do so. Simply because most people will never put the work in that is necessary. But if this guy is willing to do what it takes than good for him.|
by malndobe on 06 August 2012 - 17:49
|The breeders I have spoken with have been briefed extensively about my situation and pretty much are stating their breed or a certain litter they have is more of an active home pet than competetive/working line dog. |
Actually this is basically what I was trying to say. I dont't agree with the focus on producing pets, but it sounds like the breeders you are talking to are being honest. Some breeders will try to say their dogs are capable of living happily in the average pet home, then jumping off the couch and going and winning the world championships. The same dog. Those breeders are trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, trying to convince the pet home they aren't buying a pet, but a world class working dog who will happily live as a pet. Because for some people, they feel "pet" = "inferior" even though for a pet home pet = appropriate. That doesn't mean the world class working dog can't also live as a pet, but it's doing that in a home with a trainer, not the average pet home.
The breeders who are honest will say "this breeding is geared towards active pet homes" and admit that someone looking for a working/competition dog might find 1 pup in the litter but most won't be suitable for them, and none might be suitable. And on the flip side a pet home might find 1 pup in a working/performance oriented litter that is suitable, or 0. But when a breeder is trying to breed for both markets, and isn't clear in their advertising they do so, people assume that if their neighbor/friend/cousin/etc got a great pet from breeder X, and they see on breeder X's website that they breed working dogs and no mention that the litter the friend's pup was actually from was bred more for the pet market, then they think they can go to breeder Y who also advertises working dogs and get a great pet.
With this in mind do you still feel ANY mal from ANY litter from ANY breeder in ANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised?
Yes and No LOL I don't feel "ANY mal from ANY litter from ANY breeder in ANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised" However, I do feel MANY mals from MANY litters from MANY breeders in MANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised. And I do NOT agree with breeding Malinois litters with the focus being active pet homes. It's a working breed, and should remain as such. Even in the working bred litters there will be the occasional pup who just doesn't have the drive to be a working dog, those pups can be placed in pet homes. But if the breed has to be "bred down" to make it suitable for the average pet home, the average pet home should go get a different breed.