German Shepherd Dog > Should a male dog with a food allergy be used to stud? (82 replies)
Should a male dog with a food allergy be used to stud?
by nypiper127 on 07 July 2012 - 04:25
|I asked this question of my vet while bringing my guy in for his Lyme booster. He couldn't answer the question and called in his two other partners who then had a great discussion as to wether allergies are genetic or environmental etc. The funny thing is that after about 10 minutes they all agreed to disagree. Two said they would breed and one said they wouldn't. It seemed to me that allergies are too complex and little is understood about them to get a definate answer either way. Does anyone have any experiences / opinions on this.|
Of course we are assuming certified hips elbows etc. Don't want this thread to get sidetracked on who should breed etc. Just want to focus on allergies being passed on to litters by sire or dam.
Thanks in advance
by TingiesandTails on 07 July 2012 - 04:37
|Decide for yourself if the dog in question suffers from environmentally induced allergy (e.g. feed with lots chicken stuffed with antibiotics) or is it an allergy with a severe reaction like skin rash or breathing difficulties?|
Feeding issues can be easily dealt with, but if dogs have to take medication for their allergies I would not breed them.
by yellowrose of Texas on 07 July 2012 - 05:19
by hexe on 07 July 2012 - 05:29
|No. Whether hereditable or acquired, allergies ARE indicative of a flawed immune system, and therefore the animal is NOT physiologically normal...and only animals which are both physiologically and phenotypically normal should be used as breeding stock, especially for species that aren't being raised as food animals.|
That said, there are plenty of people who can, will and do rationalize and justify their way through that fact, and will use the animal anyway--especially if they've paid several thousand dollars for the animal as a pup and put additional expense into training, titling, etc. Likewise if they've paid tens of thousands of dollars for an adult animal.
Thus we have the decline in the physical resiliance and the ability to resist or recover from illness within the breed. Fifty years ago, when treatment for the various allergic conditions were not so readily identified or available, such dogs would not have thrived, and probably would have live shortened lives if they lived at all, and consequently would not have been considered suitable breeding candidates.
Owners of affected dogs should love their dogs, and give them the best medical care available to them, but they should NOT be breeding them.
Unfortunately, there's no way to make this so, what with free will and all that...
by marjorie on 07 July 2012 - 05:47
by ziegenfarm on 07 July 2012 - 05:55
|agree with those saying NO......100%|
by minro on 07 July 2012 - 06:05
|No. Those two vets sound like idiots, no offense. No no no.|
by GSDguy08 on 07 July 2012 - 10:56
|Dogs probably wouldn't have so many food allergies today if foods didn't have all of these chemicals and crap in them. Same for people.....|
by EuroShepherd on 07 July 2012 - 11:45
My first GSD had a lot of skin allergy issues, she had only been fed a kibble diet her whole life and I think there is a strong possibility that her allergy issues were environmentally related. (note; even though she was Czech import workingline with great pedigree and rock solid temperament, she was never bred-she also had mild HD in one hip)
Now my dogs are fed a primarily homemade meal with raw meat and bones. I buy mostly organic and/or locally produced foods that come from farms that don't use chemicals, I also buy certified humane raised meat as often as possible (my eggs and some of my dairy and meat/bones comes from friends with farms that I personally know who don't load their animals with antibiotics and chemicals and who do allow their animals free range pasture.)
None of my dogs I have now have allergies of any kind, I would never breed a dog who has allergies while being fed the kind of diet I feed now.
by nypiper127 on 07 July 2012 - 13:02
|I tend also to agree with the "No" answers but it is the simple easy answer. It is the "better safe than sorry" answer but it doesn't really address wether allergies are a trait that will always be passed on...are they in the genes and if they are...is it recessive etc...|
The Vets are not idiots and it was a fascinating conversation. What was interesting is that they thoroughly enjoyed their debate and found it interesting that they couldn't come up with an answer. Also interesting is that among the three of them...they spanned three generations. They are a family operation (all educated at Cornell in NY). There is a Grandfather, Son and now nephew. The conversation went from canine to human back to canine. Part of the conversation included exposing babies / puppies to certain foods / chemicals / allergens at the wrong time (completely a current theory and not fact). During this point of the conversation one of the older vets said "Its like peanut allergies in kids....during my time you never heard or saw such a thing". Found it interesting.
To clarify....I have no dog in this fight (pun intended). This was brought up when my vet asked me why I won't breed my guy. He is crazy about him (can't blame him). I told him it was because of the food allergy he had as a puppy. It was either something in kibble or chicken. I put him on raw and he has been fine ever since (no chicken). When I had him tested for other allergens he also tested positive for dust mites but when food was swittched...no allergies...go figure.
Vets were against raw (shocker) but now cannot deny results.
But I am getting sidetracked...so...aside from genetics...I have no room for another GSD let alone puppies in the house! I just found it interesting and thought others might also.
Now...the best way to learn, is from past experiences and or mistakes. I was hoping people would share their experiences but now I fear some might be afraid to share their experiences for fear of being ridiculed on here. There is obviously no clear answer "on the books". If three vets could not agree on an answer I think it is definately worth a good discussion on here. I know for a fact that there are several people on this board that are "experts" on genetics.
I also do agree with Hexe on the $$$$ issue. I think that is a serious problem and also think that because allergies are not readily seen, they are easily hidden from any scrutiny placed on a breeding program. I also think that it is probably something a breeder could blame on the new owner of a puppy because there is no proof of genetic related issues (but that is an entirely different thread...or two).
So..back on point...if anyone has had experiences with this...or heard of them...feel free! Would also love to hear any and all good theories.
Litters with allergies.....all puppies? Some puppies? One puppy?
Sire allergies...dam no allergies....puppys?
Both Sire and dam allergies.....puppies?
No allergies in Europe...brought here...new allergies? Other way around? Left coast to right coast? North to south? Same thing.
If one had the "perfect" dog (no side threads on "perfect"...just trying to encourage discussion here) that was truly an asset to the breed...(be it working or show) a dog that was truly amazing...BUT he had an allergy...would it not be worth breeding him in an effort to breed the allergy out of the line? Or again, is too little known about allergies and genetics to even attempt it?
Food for thought...
by joanro on 07 July 2012 - 14:11
|Interesting that you were at the vet's for Lyme booster for your boy. My thoughts are that over-vaccinating (not implying you over-vac), in conjunction with drugs fed to food animals has brought on the epidemic of allergies seen in dogs and humans. Chicken, when raised on natural food(without drug additives) may not cause allergies in dogs. I have had personal experience with this years ago with some of my sled dogs. I'll relate an experience with a baboon I had fifteen years ago that gave me insight to commercially grown food animals : "Josh" loved raw meat and was particularly fond of raw liver. When ever I processed chicken, venison, beef or goat, Josh would get a nice big chunk of liver, which he would take like a little kid being handed an ice cream cone. He would squeal with delight and scoot into a comfortable spot and eat the piece of liver savoring each delectable bite. I had some store bought beef liver that was meant to be cooked for dog treats, and I gave Josh a big peace of it raw. He took it with great anticipation as usual, but when he lifted the liver to his nose to take the customary sniff, his whole demeanor changed. He looked like he had just been handed a chunk of some thing distaseful and disgusting! He flung the liver away and proceded to wipe his hand back and forth through the grass, trying to get the nasty smell off. He sniffed his hand again, and rubbed some more. I threw the remaining liver in the garbage. Just out of curiosity, I bought some chicken liver and offered it to Josh. He sniffed it, and refused to take it. I don't buy commercially grown meat anymore and use vegetables grown here at home. Commercially grown meat is poisoning us and our dogs.|
by VomHKINC on 07 July 2012 - 14:38
|Lord no! |
Best to remove all unhealthy dogs from the gene pool...not something I would do...ever. A dog is a commitment for life, and you, as I am, always in it for the long haul when they are ill...unfortunately allergy = possible food/environmental ---> other issues...possibly. Atopy, etc. But to avoid both financial hardache on you and those who may get a pup with allergies, no. In many cases, where there is one autoimmune issue, there will/could be another.
Good luck to you! ... I think we all feel the same here. It sux, but it happens.
by joanro on 07 July 2012 - 14:57
|I agree that ONLY healthy dogs should be bred. But imagine weeding out all dogs from the gene pool, no matter what breed, that react to chemicals/drugs, and only using dogs that can tolerate all the poison we put into their bodies. I think we would end up with some physically nonreactive dogs, but I wonder what changes would be going on in the process of developing poison tolerant dogs.|
by Gustav on 07 July 2012 - 15:28
|Joanro, I am not surprised at your story, and submit that these additives given to commercial food animals are also an ingredient in the rise of cancer as well as allergies in our dogs.|
by joanro on 07 July 2012 - 15:41
|Agree with you, Gustav. So does breeding chemical/poison tolerant dogs only, equate to human imposed "survival of the fittest" ?|
by joanro on 07 July 2012 - 15:47
|This whole issue of poison tolerance in dogs reminds me of poison tolerant insects. The poison has to be change periodically because the targeted insects become tolerant. If flea poison becomes tolerated by the flea, what happens to dogs' systems when the chemicals are made more lethal to the flea ? Like Gustav said, cancer.|
by nypiper127 on 07 July 2012 - 16:20
|Sometimes we are also too quick to make one thing the culprit and not want to look elsewhere. I am sure cancer existed long before a lot of our chemicals...just like allergies. Way back when....no vets...no immunizations....no science.....did dogs / wolves with bad allergies breed or did the ones with really bad allergies die (culled naturally) because they were to sick to eat...etc. If they did breed...was it passed on? It is amazing that in todays day and age...so little is known about allergies....why is that?|
And I did the Lyme because it is a matter of the lesser of two evils up here in NY. This is a banner year for deer ticks and the first year Angus (my GSD) ever had a tick bite...scared me into taking the plunge. Took five years for me to do it.
by joanro on 07 July 2012 - 16:43
|There are probably as many reasons for "so little being known about allergies" as there are allergies. But the most likely reason can be found by "following the money" . There is huge money in allergy treatments, so is there in the industries that are likely the causes. I think you answered your own question about cancer or allergies existing in wolves and dogs before science interfered. There needs to be a cause. It is a fact that both are more prevalent now than even just fifty years ago.|
by marjorie on 07 July 2012 - 16:49
| I never vaccinated Missie T after her initial childood and adult boosters. I had her titered. I didnt even vaccinate her for Rabies, just titered. They let dogs into the USA from overseas based upon titers, but they wont allow citizens to follow those same rules??? Missie T's titers were always perfect, right where they should be, which goes to show that Rabies vaccinations are probably lifelong. Missie T was 11 yrs old when I had to euthanize her because of her DM. She had skin problems, despite no vacciantions. She would develop yeasty/fungal infections which would become staph...|
by mfh27 on 07 July 2012 - 20:56
|Never mind, miss read the comment I responded to.|