Main > BH (18 replies)
by Paige1 on 22 June 2012 - 12:45
|New to sport and wondering how much handler help is allowed during BH?|
by YogieBear on 22 June 2012 - 12:56
|None - your dog either knows it or doesnt know the exercise........|
by Gunther Dietrich on 22 June 2012 - 13:04
My experiences and observations over the years have been that judges tolerate quite a bit of handler help in the obedience portion of the BH. I think this is because they are looking to pass dogs that are safe, sound, and under control, rather than well trained in obedience exercises.
by YogieBear on 22 June 2012 - 13:51
|I think if the judge knows you are a "first timer" they are a little easier with the pencil than if you are a seasoned handler.... depending on if they are "simple" handling mistakes or just outright helping of the dog- I don't think would be so tolerated..... |
It is a pass/fail situation - points taken for errors - dogs or handler........ 42 passes and can go on to the traffic.....Why would a handler intentionally help - oh that is right - the dog needs help because he doesn't know the exercise.....
Chances are if you "know" you might have to do one or the other for the dog to succeed might be a indication on if he is ready or not to do the bh...........
Just my opinion though.
by VKGSDs on 22 June 2012 - 13:58
|Technically handler help is not allowed but the BH is pass/fail, so if you have enough points to move past the obedience, you will. If your dog needs help, then help him and take the hit. I've seen SchH3 national level handlers using handler help. I'm not saying I'm any better, but some of these people have been doing it for so long they don't even realize it. As much as we like to talk about how SchH is hard and no handler help is allowed, I think it's rare to see a SchH obedience routine completely free of handler help.|
by Sheesh on 22 June 2012 - 22:09
|It also depends on the judge. Some are much more lenient than others.|
by brynjulf on 22 June 2012 - 22:38
|Train like you are shooting for a perfect score. That way you will have it memorized come trial day. I swear " my dog has never done that before" was invented at the BH :) Nerves will get you to do some silly things, but usually our dogs will pass inspite of us :)|
by Chaz Reinhold on 23 June 2012 - 04:43
|I've seen dogs that are ready for a three and others that didn't even know the heel position pass. Depends on the judge. It is a temp test. Your errors shouldn't fail the dog.|
by kitkat3478 on 23 June 2012 - 13:52
|In my case,or should. Say my dogs, I most certainly failed my dog. I had the worst ever case of stage fright, I couldn't tell the difference between right and left. The judge told me he was sorry for my dog, but because of me...|
by YogieBear on 23 June 2012 - 19:27
|So sorry kitkat for your failure......But I am sorry Chaz handler help -or for that matter "lack of handler experience" most certainly can fail a dog.... the rule books from all the schutzhund organizations even advises how many points are deducted for certain handler actions......... |
True, bh is a temp. test, but I think it is a "little more" than just temperament alone. The dog needs to know the exercises.
In theory,,,lol - it is a test to make sure they have the temperament to go on to the schutzhund levels - but pass or fail on the first part of this temperament test is still on a point system at his discretion... The judge doesn't give that info to the crowd usually . Unless it is impressive or for that matter unimpressive - I have seen judges congratulate a handler/dog team in the bh with a perfect score of 60 - and Yes get to go on to th traffic portion. but I have also seen a judge say (in a German accent) "your dog not no nothing!" you score a 1..just to add insult to what the team just went thru..! or in kitkats case - failure because of poor handling... Handlers can make their dogs look worse than they are - which can fail a dog in the bh as well-didnt have anything to do with "temperament".
We should set our dogs up for success.
If we know that our dog goes thru the group and swings wide - or if he sits in the middle of the crowd - he might sit crooked - then yes - by all means "help"......... One wouldn't sit their dog in the middle of the crowd knowing this.... nor go thru the crowd to start where you might loose your dog on a wide turn......... is this help? or is this "good handling"?
Your dog has been recalled on the last part of the routine. He always seems to comes in crooked. You put your feet pigeon toed so he will come in straight - is this handler help? Yes it is..... Judge see's that - he knows why you did it... will he take off? who knows? how many other times did you do something he saw in this little temperament test? That was the last part of the exercise - does he go back with his pencil and change some of the points that he gave because he was giving you the benefit of the doubt on your handling abilities - did that just fail your dog for what you did?
There is a difference in my opinion in handler help and good handling. It is your job to make your dog look as good as possible with out seeming to be helping. Not to mention your job to train your dog so he is prepared to do it correctly and hope he will remember it on trial day.
For most of us - we are out there to have fun - but in the same manner we don't want our handling skills, nor our dogs to look like we are out there just to get our temperments judged alone.........We are out there to show we are an awesome team and have prepared for this adventure. But this is just my opinion though. Yogie
by Chaz Reinhold on 23 June 2012 - 21:47
|Yogi, I agree with you. Like I said, depends on the judge. I have a dog that has been ready for a Bh for 18 months. What's the rush, right? The only reason I'd do it is to get to a 1. I need a 1 for the 2, and a 2 for the 3.|
by YogieBear on 23 June 2012 - 22:44
|Chaz - I know people/dogs that have been ready for years....... until you make the committment - who is to say they will make it or not.... been ready for 18 months? is it perfection that you seek? or just laziness? or fright that maybe your dog might fail? From your comment on this thread - not familiar with simple points that can be taken away..?.........I know you are a jokester-just based on past that I have read....so not sure if you are serious or just stirring the pot......but I will bite..........|
- it doesnt matter if they are ready and have been for that long..........You obviously don't know what is required of a simple temperment test.....if your dog is ready for the bh-----from your post IPO1? 2? that comes next right?... that handler help can fail your dog in the schutzhund routines........
.. just thinking aloud -........ the ob routine - you can move you feet in the retrieve exercise and loose the entire points in the exercise....(you!!! nothing to do with the dog).... tracking 20 points is based on the handler - they deduct for "handler" help......if your dogs is PERFECT - than you should have no problem if handler help doesnt matter in the routines .......bh excluded..........since your dog is ready and has been...it wont be a perfect routine since you don't know what to do as a handler.........you will get at least a 80 with your dogs perfection and your weakness..........I train my dog - but who trains you? You should know these things if you plan to trial your dog in schutzhund.......you know your dog has been ready for a bh for 18 months -how old is he/she? how do you know that he/she is ready? - if you dont know that handler help will be deducted from "your" dogs score? you obviously havent done your homework...
Points are "fail" or pass in the 1,2,3 - hard enough to get them with your dog doing what "he" needs to do - why would you want to add to the failure of your dog with your errors and not know that it matters?
Not trying to start a war here with an attack - not meaning to attack you either - just a conversation and trying to understand why you say what you say - joke or no joke - this person had a valid question - and you answered it ......... right or wrong - they will pick what they want to stand by - and if it is right they will succeed and if wrong - will realize it and move on to the next bit of advise...... We pick what we want to and leave the rest......same here.
Again, just my opinion though.
by Chaz Reinhold on 24 June 2012 - 02:44
|Yogi, the goal is a 3. I merely need the others to get to that point. I can train to my goal of a 3 and go from there. My goal isn't a Bh. So why the rush to get it? So I cam hang the paper certificate in my den? No thanks.|
by VKGSDs on 24 June 2012 - 12:56
|I saw two people fail recently because their dogs made mistakes and they didn't know how to proceed at that point, so there has to be a balance between training for perfection and knowing what to do if/when the dog makes a mistake. In both cases the dogs would have passed if the handlers had acted differently after the mistake but because they didn't know what to do when the dogs botched that exercise (long down) they ended up losing all the points instead of some.|
by YogieBear on 24 June 2012 - 13:46
|Training for the 3 is a given -most of us train in the same manner - backward!!!! - but to minimize something you feel is so simple - will be your undoing....... it isnt about the bh certificate Chaz - a paper hanging on your wall - this is about handler help and is it allowed in schutzhund......the poster simple ask it in relation to the bh -|
In the bigger picture- schutzhund 3 backward to the bh - it isn't permissible... it is deductions...... so you can train all you want for the three but if you as a handler don't know what is expected of you as a handler during that schutzhund 3 routine - it means you and your dog will never get there... no rush of course - but when you do decide your dog is "ready" - then do him a favor and at least know how to the dance goes in the schutzhund routine.. All the rule books talk about faulty exercises - and guess what? handler help will declare it faulty - even if your dog does it perfect.
I don't care if you never get a bh or a 3 - but at least give correct advise if somebody asks...
by Chaz Reinhold on 25 June 2012 - 01:10
|Lol. A one eyed snapping turtle can get a bh.|
by Paige1 on 25 June 2012 - 11:01
|UPDATE: Did my BH Saturday at Indy and the Boxer passed with little handler help. Had to give two commands for the sit out of motion.|
Thanks for the replies
by YogieBear on 25 June 2012 - 15:36
by brynjulf on 25 June 2012 - 21:05