Main > i have a question how do u know a great breeder or a bad breeder (114 replies)
by mollyandjack on 27 June 2012 - 23:07
|That is really not why people started making comments about microwaves...|
by starrchar on 27 June 2012 - 23:15
I missed that Beetree! I thought it was Neisa that made reference to it- although it's a TV, not a microwave :).
by beetree on 27 June 2012 - 23:39
Here is an excerpt of my original post, on this thread: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum.read?mnr=616077&pagen=5
by Niesia on 27 June 2012 - 23:40
|So it is ALL my fault!... My greatest apologies.|
by beetree on 27 June 2012 - 23:48
|LOL, No, Niesia, it is all MY fault, but I totally get the husband and battery recharging thing....|
by workingdogz on 28 June 2012 - 00:00
I think you are reading too much into what I wrote.
There are a few breeders we would buy from here
in the USA, heck, even a couple in Canada, so you really
should drop the whole line of bull about that.
I just have a problem with false promises implied
by a contract that won't be honored.
How many contracts have you read and laughed at because
you could spot the loopsholes a mile away?
And, in another vein, buyers need to educate themselves
BEFORE they buy!
If a buyer doesn't think a contract is fair, the time to deal
with that is before a dime changes hands, not after you
have a pup and a problem arises.
This is precisely why we own what we buy. And if a problem
arises, we let the breeder know, and we deal with the issues
on our own. We have been pleasantly surprised by the EU
breeders we have dealt with whom have offered to send
another puppy from another litter if H/E's didn't pan out.
Most are pretty decent about that, but, one must decide
if the shipping fees are 'worth' it.
Market wise? I can buy a puppy from two Koer und Leistungzucht
parents that are either LGA or BSP dogs for less than an average
American bred puppy from untitled/untested parents.
I suppose my better half and I are 'weird' in the sense
we accept responsibility for the puppies we purchase.
We research the breeding as best as we can, and then roll the dice.
By the way joanro, why did YOU buy imports?
How come you didn't buy American?
by kitkat3478 on 28 June 2012 - 00:09
|All I know is, "I MYSELF" offer a LIFETIME Guarantee with my pups against, ANY and ALL Genetic Defects. I WILL give a replacement pup, I will NOT buy back a pup-dog (I guess if the situation arose and that is what I had to do to safeguard MY dogs well being, I WILL buyback), BUT I Will ALWAYS take back one of my dogs. Hell, I tell people if they find themselves in a situation, I will keep the dog until they can have it back. Bottom line is, There is no excuse for a dog I bred to end up dumped or in the dog pound. I just don't understand why it is so hard to replace a pup, that was. NOT what was bargained for. I really do have a hard ttime with that.|
by Red Sable on 28 June 2012 - 00:24
|What happens if the breeder is a typical|
'5 year-I have money and bought an import' flash in
the pan wonder and is no longer in dogs by the time
you need your replacement or guarantee etc honored?
By the way, how do you get limited registration lifted off
your dog if you cannot locate the breeder anymore?
That kind of shit does happen!
Shit happens in the genetic lottery. We don't buy into
limited registration, contracts or guarantee's. We do our
research and purchase from knowledgeable experienced
dog trainers/breeders that train, title and test their dogs,
and we hope for the best.
I totally agree!
I'd rather pay less and take my chances, if that means importing from another country, then so be it, because if this board has proven nothing else, it has proven contracts wether written or verbal are not worth squat in many cases.
If you really want people to buy local, put your prices where they should be,and be honest about the dogs you breed.
Also, if you are going to sit on your high horse and look down your nose at those that are wanting to return a pup for legit defects, and preach this dogs are for life crap, make sure YOU have not ever rehomed/sold a dog before either. Seriously, what a friggin' joke.
Make sure you can pass your own standards that you set for others.
by joanro on 28 June 2012 - 00:40
|Actually, I have bought American and the puppies and one adult I imported were because they were the dogs I found that I wanted. In other words, the same dogs were not available here. But times have since changed. Thank you for asking, wd. This thread, if not at least entertaining, should have given people a perspective they may not have previously had.:)|
by Teufel Hunde on 28 June 2012 - 01:31
|Hey, what would I know about bad breeders??? I bought a puppy that was going to rock the world according to the breeder. She produced the best dogs around, far superior than all the rest. At least I admit I was stupid enough to believe her.|
He came with an injury to his muzzle that threatened to disfigure his face. His canine came in disfigured and discolored...there went any rating. At 6 months he was diagnosed with severe ED.(orthopedic diagnosis confirm he had ED, not broken bones,wrong diet and any other wild affliction ). Upon consultation with orthopedic surgeons, who recommended surgery ASAP if there was to even be a CHANCE at a semi normal life. For all intents and purposes he was given a guarded prognosis with immediate surgery and very poor if left untreated or surgery was delayed.
After several emails the breeder sent reassuring me she would have the surgery, I gave him back with the agreement of a refund. I thought this was best since she bragged she had many, many fans of her breedings and she could easily place him. We agreed upon a refund of what I paid . (which by the way, was never received)Who better to help this little guy if not his breeder ,right?
Unfortunately he is STILL awaiting medical care 3 months later. He's up for sale with the promise of surgery "when he matures" I'm sickened and disgusted that a breeder with all this compassion for their dogs would put one of their own pups through such pain and discomfort. It was the worst mistake of my life to think the pup would be in better hands with his breeder.
I have learned from this though. One thing for sure is I will NEVER again buy a pup from someone who does not actively participate in the sport ,doesn't like the sport and openly knocks those who do. How could they possibly know the potential workability of their dogs if they themselves don't train, work or participate in anything(Schutzhund,agility,SAR,obedience,etc)else but letting them mate in their back yard. Proof is in the pudding ,my dear................................
ps ..there are no sides..only right/wrong truth/lies evidence/lack of
by Blitzen on 28 June 2012 - 01:49
|No refund yet and that puppy still hasn't had the surgery, TH? Damn.....|
I would like to add one thing to your advice about choosing a puppy. In addition to titling their dogs, great breeders also do every applicable health check and never use dogs that haven't had hip and elbow xrays or use dogs that can't pass those xray evaluations.
by Jenni78 on 28 June 2012 - 03:16
Here is the "defective" puppy with the "disfigured" face before he left my home.
by starrchar on 28 June 2012 - 13:39
|Niesia stated "So it is ALL my fault!... My greatest apologies."|
LOL No need to apologize! This your opinion and you are entitled as I am and is everyone else on this forum. This a just a discussion and there are obviously a number of viewpoints and opinions. I'm still having a tough time comparing puppies with TVs, but that is ok. I understand your point...somewhat. As Kitkat stated, even when you buy a car or appliance that is defective the manufacturer will spend the money to either repair it or give you a new one. Yes, if the item must be replaced typically the original must be returned, but the difference is that sending back a TV has no emotional consequences for the seller, buyer or the appliance. Returning a puppy can have significant emotional consequences for all involved.
That said, all breeders are entitled to do as they wish, but I personally would not buy a pup from a breeder who required a defective pup to be returned before replacing it (as I ignorantly did 20+ years ago). Let's face it, the average puppy buyer will not be willing to return their pup and I believe that may be the main reason a breeder will put that clause in the contract.
by mollyandjack on 28 June 2012 - 14:48
|I still think that comparing dogs and appliances is a false analogy. Although you may say that a puppy and an appliance share the characteristic of being merchandise, they do not share other, very important characteristics that should influence or at least be considered when making business decisions about either one. A microwave can have replacement parts, therefore this should be included in a warranty or contract. A puppy cannot receive replacement parts. Are you still going to include that in a contract? They are both merchandise, and that is something that would appear in the contracts or warranties for a lot of merchandise. It is fine to make any sort of analogy you want, regardless of whether you mean for it to be stretched to its logical conclusion...until it starts to affect how you actually do business.|
by GSDPACK on 28 June 2012 - 16:30
|One of my "microwaves" came back defective, it will not turn the table. So I refunded half of the money purchase and they decided to keep the microwave since it was such a nice kitchen addition; it still warmed up the food and was a useful family ?tool?. My microwaves even half price are keep able...|
How do you like that?
by joanro on 28 June 2012 - 17:02
|Starrchar, I can't understand how you and others believe that ALL breeders who have "that clause in the contract" are out to scam the general population. The post I made about an endless supply of puppies after the first purchase was originally meant as sarcasm. But you have changed my mind.. Now that post is meant literally. Breeders, except puppy mills, do not usually have an endless supply of puppies for every one who insists on "I wanna keep this one, but you owe me another one for what ever reason I choose, or else give me my money back and I'm still entitled to keep the puppy for what ever reason I name". Not ALL BUYERS are ethical.|
by mollyandjack on 28 June 2012 - 17:07
|"Not ALL BUYERS are ethical." -- very true.|
by workingdogz on 28 June 2012 - 17:21
|I see both sides of the issue. There are buyers who|
want a free ride, and sellers who just want the $.
Buyers need to read the breeders contract if they have one,
and make sure they understand and agree to every term
that is listed. Breeders need to make sure if they have a
contract it clearly states what they will/won't do etc.
It's not unreasonable to ask a buyer for proof from a min.
of one vet prior to discussing a 'replacement' or 'refund' etc.
It's not even unreasonable for the seller to ask for a second
opinion. But, once the buyer jumps through the sellers hoops,
then they should get their refund/replacement etc. ASAP.
Both sides need to stick to the contract, not ask for special
treatment after the fact.
For the potential buyer, once again, read and reread the contract.
Any and all concerns need to be addressed before you sign, before
you hand over a dime. Sellers, outline what you expect/want from
the buyer if an issue arises, don't make things up as you go along.
Or, do what we do, buy the puppy from the breeding we want,
and thats it. If it works, super, if it doesn't? Well, thats how it goes.
The plus to our choice is, the puppy is ours, no special conditions.
To some, the downside may be no 'contract/guarantee'.
Do some basic math. The average buyer has a puppy shipped.
Dog is now 6+ mos old, and a problem arises. Say the breeder
will require the puppy to be sent back, that shipping is on the
buyers dime. So, once you deduct shipping/crate/health cert.
fees, how much of a refund are you going to actually get?
Factor in the vet bills to diagnose the problem too.
A replacement puppy? Well, you will pay shipping on THAT
Once you do the math, (unless it's one of the $3500+ showline pups),
it's usually not worth the cost to send the pup back to get your 'refund'
or 'replacement'. If we have a problem with the pup we buy? We let
the breeder know as a courtesy, then, we either keep the pup, or find
a suitable home for him etc, and start the search again.
We accept the chances you take with buying a puppy, but we also
don't enter into a purchase under the presumption the seller is
providing us with anything but healthy puppy of good nerve and
temperment. We simply don't "do" contracts/guarantees etc.
If you are in the dog world long enough, you will end up with some
sort of health issue with a pup, it's just the odds.
by joanro on 28 June 2012 - 17:32
|Good points well said, wd.|
by Niesia on 28 June 2012 - 17:37
When people ignore facts and focus only on the emotional perspective - you can argue those points till the end of time.