German Shepherd Dog > Milo's Necropsy Report (188 replies)
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 20:42
|" Which is more important?"|
That's a tough question. Would you rather have a dog with weak temperament and great hips or vice-versa?
"I'd opt to buy from a breeder who just does it all."
Which is exactly my point.
by Red Sable on 23 June 2012 - 23:11
|"I don't look at an LR as a way to elminate competition, I consider it a good way to keep pet quality dogs from producing dogs that are eligible for registration. What's the alternative?"|
I'd agree with you, except I haven't seen one breeder use it for that. Everyone I know has put the Limited on a dog, and the same dog is also breeding material IF you are willing to pay a couple hundred more dollars.
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 23:34
Most of the breeders I know use the LR in an honest well-meaning way, RS, but they are not GSD breeders. This breed is unique in many ways and how breeders guarantee their dogs and grade their puppies is one of them LOL.
by marjorie on 24 June 2012 - 02:48
|--- > A BYB IMO is the breeder who breeds RinTinTin XXX to Doll Baby XXX with no thought to xrays or health checks. |
and what do you call a breeder who chic tests all the sires and dams and has multiple liters in the house, all the time, for sale, and what do you call it when this breeder doubles up on SERIOUS health problems for which there are no tests, and then receives a breeder of merit award from the AKC? I call it BS! No different than a BYB, to me, despite the testing of the sires and dams. Just someone who learned how to beat the system...
by Mcap on 24 June 2012 - 03:34
|All interesting stuff. I get the BYB thing and I don't think this is the case, but I will find out shortly. The breeder contract states that we must return the dog back to them if for any reason, we are not 100% satisfied. I'll take my chances with that contract. I was asked at least 3 times if I was absolutely certain that I wanted one of their dogs. She also "grilled me" on my background, environment and family. |
Why is the breeder that we bought Milo and Rocco from any different that a puppy mill? Is it because they have produced World Siegers? In my opinion it's a puppy mill on 40 acres. Why doesn't anyone stop them? I think the reason is that people are afraid of her. Can one person be so powerful in the dog world that people look away when it comes to breeding practices? Maybe if more breeder were held responsible for what they produced, the situation would be different.
What reputable breeder does not ask about the potential new owners and their household? Provide a Bill of Sale? Provide and make the buyer sign a conntract? Provide a pedigree listing? I did however receive a zip lock bag of Eukanuba and 2, maybe 3 cans of dog food. The only question that I was asked was "will this be cash or check?" I have received emails, IMs and even had a couple of phone conversations with people that own or have owned dogs from this kennel. The conversations were all very similar if you get my drift.
by Keith Grossman on 24 June 2012 - 04:51
|As I've pointed out countless times in this thread, Mike, there is a happy middle between large commercial breeders and those who do virtually nothing to prove the breedworthiness of their dogs.|
by hexe on 24 June 2012 - 05:14
"Hexe, if you are so concerned, I would pick up the phone and call Kim at Pathwork, before you slam her. As the old saying goes....Opinions are like xxxholes...everyone has one. Get over it and enjoy life...it's doesn't last that long!"
Wow. *I* slammed her? Where? And there's no point in me calling the breeder: she's not likely to change her preference for oversized GSDs, and that was the ONLY negative comment I made regarding their dogs.
There's naught for me to get over, Mike--I don't breed, broker, sell, or show dogs, so there's nothing in it for me if you get your dogs from the top breeder in the world, or the scurviest backyard operator in the hood--I simply don't like to see people get their hearts broken if it can be avoided, or at least hedged against.
I repeat what I closed my previous post with, and it's the last I'll say on the matter:
"The new pup is no more and no less of a 'crap shoot' than any other puppy, though, and may well be perfect in every way, and go on to die in his sleep at the ripe old age of 18 years...so who knows?"
by Tihannah on 24 June 2012 - 05:18
I discussed your situation with you on the other forum and am deeply sorry for your loss and experience. As someone who has also gone through similar heartache and purchased from both a BYB and a so-called reputable larger scale breeder, both with disappointing outcomes, I understand completely what Keith and some of these others are trying to explain. It's not about the size of the kennel or how many Seigers they own. It's about the breeders and whether or not they are producing dogs to the German Shepherd standards and actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND the dogs and lines they are breeding. For a long time, I had trouble deciphering this as well. About 6 months ago, a very experienced member of this forum took the time to sort of school me on some of these things. He sent me to pick out breeders I thought were reputable and produced dogs based on what I thought I was looking for, and then together, we would go through everything - the dogs and lines they bred, their contracts, health testing and titling. He taught me A LOT and really removed some serious blinders for me. One thing he said to me that I think applies to the ongoing argument and always sticks in my head is this -
Ask yourself this, if the breeder you want to purchase from has not worked/titled a dog, how can they tell you what the dog is about? How do they KNOW?
And yes, we all know people that have dogs that are FANTASTIC in their owners yards/homes, but take them out into the big world and wow!
I truly hope this pup is all you are hoping for and a wonderful addition to your family.
by Blitzen on 24 June 2012 - 13:57
Marjorie, I don't know any breeders who do that, so I'm not sure how to respond to that question. If I did, I would probably think of them more as puppy millers than a BYB. Either way they would not be someone I would buy a dog from or recommend.
by benzi on 24 June 2012 - 17:48
|I was wondering if you can post what kind of Chinese herbs your vet had Milo on? I too use some natural supplements, ie: milk thistle, sam-e and others. My vet is not a holistic vet, but does believe in trying natural remdies. Thank you.|
by Bhaugh on 24 June 2012 - 19:33
|I'm really sorry you had your pup die so early. I would require the first breeder to step up or I'd help them do the right thing by suing them. But this is not why I actually decided to post.|
When I first heard "Patchwork Shepherds" a red flag went up. For the life of me I cant remember why. BEFORE I actually bought from them, I would contact "Krazybout k-9's as she does rescue in this area and would know of this kennel.
I went to the website. For the pet trade, I guess they are ok. HOWEVER imo this is a byb. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to breed a female prior to OFA'ing her. If indeed she had prelim xrays done, make the breeder PROOVE it and show you the actual films. What other testing has she done? Your dog just died , i would make damn sure the breeder i chose stood behind what she bred and had the testing to proove it. Im not title crazy but because it didnt seem any of these dogs are worked in any venue, how true to the standard are they breeding? Breeding for size is not breeding to the standard.
The contract states you have to return the dog to the kennel. You didnt mention if they are planning on paying you to do this. I'm guessing no.
I know you think we are picking on this breeder. We are. We want you to buy a dog from someone who breeds within the standard of the German Shepherd, from stock that has been tested and from a breeder who will be there for you 100%.
This breeder wants you to pay 1000 for a neutered dog on a bitch that hasnt even been OFA'd with no other testing done. You would have a better chance getting a dog from a rescue. Certainly cheaper.
by JonRob on 24 June 2012 - 21:31
He already bought the new pup. So it looks like some posters just want to crap on him for getting the kind of GSD they don't like. It's too late to "save" him from what they call a "mistake." Nice. Try to make him feel bad about his new pup right after his other pup dropped dead at 6 months. Well at least his dead pup met the standard.
Fact is, I can't find anything bad about Patchwork online. They require a contract that guarantees a replacement pup if any kind of bad health problem comes up. The contract requires the owner to return the pup if the owner decides he doesn't want him any more so the pup doesn't end up in rescue or dead at the dog pound. Patchwork even pays to have the dog shipped back to them if the owner says he wants to find another home for him. The contract also says the breeder gets to take the dog back if the owner doesn't treat him right. The dead pup's breeder didn't have any of this but hey she breeds within the standard.
Most GSD owners want a smart, active, loyal, sane, stable, healthy dog that protects them but still loves their kids and friends. They don't want to do Schutzhund. Why can't people just get the GSD they want and stop telling other people they can't have a different kind of GSD. I sure don't want a crook back GSD that meets the standard but I don't run around telling other people they can't have a GSD like that.
Milo's owner made a smart choice with his new pup. I wish him all the best. I hope he posts lots of pics as the pup grows up.
by beetree on 24 June 2012 - 21:41
|Oh, dear, that contract might be real comforting to some, and believe me if Mcap is happy with his new pup and the current toss of the roulette ball, I am the last one on this Earth to burst his bubble.|
Just let me point out the pointlessness of this particular part of the contract:
Oh, let me count the ways this ends up becoming a nightmare.
Add in the next part, and you'll never stand a chance, not if you think it means returning a defective puppy will get you any of your money back. Let me tell you now, it does not.
by Keith Grossman on 24 June 2012 - 22:06
|"Why can't people just get the GSD they want and stop telling other people they can't have a different kind of GSD."|
Using that logic, why don't we just let everyone decide for him/herself what the definition of an inch or a pound or a gallon is? Standards exist for a reason.
by JonRob on 24 June 2012 - 22:06
That contract is a whole lot better than what a lot of breeders that "meet the standard" have. And how many breeders that "meet the standard" give you all your money back if the pup gets a bad health problem. Can you give us a list of the ones that do?
Also can you find any ripoff report or anything like it complaining about Patchwork? Even one? That's what really tells the story.
by Keith Grossman on 24 June 2012 - 22:11
|"Also can you find any ripoff report or anything like it complaining about Patchwork? Even one? That's what really tells the story."|
Really? How? There are no ripoff reports on me because I don't breed dogs. Does that make me a good breeder?
by GSD DEFENDER on 24 June 2012 - 22:22
|You will find long hair, out of standard GSD puppies for sale, in the advertising section, on the webpage of the highest rated DOG CLUB in the land!|
by JonRob on 24 June 2012 - 22:22
"Using that logic, why don't we just let everyone decide for him/herself what the definition of an inch or a pound or a gallon is?"
Because we all need to talk the same language about physical measurements. But even there we don't all use the same standard, other countries use metric.
But different people need different kinds of GSDs. That's what makes GSDs so great, they do so well at so many different things. Some GSDs guide blind people. Most guide dogs would be crap Schutzhund dogs. Just wondering, do you think GSD guide dogs are mutts that cause the demise of the breed. Other GSDs take down criminals. Others find dope. Others work sheep. Others hang out with mom and the kids and keep them safe. Others do sports.
"Standards are there for a reason."
Whose standard? The American one? The German one? GSD people can't even agree on a standard. No reason why they should.
Go get the GSD you want. But it's a free country and other people can still get the type of GSD they want no matter how much that bothers you. Hope it stays that way.
by beetree on 24 June 2012 - 22:37
|JonRob, I am being realistic, I thought. If you, (hypothetically) agree that you will never ask this breeder for any of your money back for any reason, then you already have it your way! I just wish "they/breeders' contracts " would just say: No money back, no exceptions, in their contracts, it should really clear things up. IMHO.|
Oh, and what's that other part about the breeder "getting" the dog if the "owner" doesn't treat him right? Oh, that one is a landmine in the makling--- really!
I much prefer to own my dog, not lease it, and I know we both get to make our own choices, not really looking for an argument. You seem to be enjoying your choices, so that works for me.
Mcap I wish only happy days ahead for you and your new pup. Sorry for your loss and trials.
by Keith Grossman on 24 June 2012 - 22:44
|I've been in this breed for a lot longer than Patchwork (apt name, btw) has been alive and you are completely out of your depth in this conversation, JonRob. Here's a clue for you: buy whatever dog you'd like but understand that people who work their asses off trying their best to preserve the integrity of the breed have every right in the world to criticize those who don't. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution; when you give your money to these breeders, you are part of the problem.|