German Shepherd Dog > Milo's Necropsy Report (188 replies)
by Mcap on 22 June 2012 - 20:51
|Everyone has a right to their own opinion. She breeds the type of dog that we are looking for. We hope to get both dogs into Therapy work and if you read her client testimonials I think it says alot about her as a person and a breeder. I'm not interested in confirmation or the trophies so we are happy with our decision.|
by GSD DEFENDER on 22 June 2012 - 23:30
|CONGRATS on your new puppy! ADORABLE!|
dog food, my heart puppy was walking the day after surgery, and he has amazing strenth 10 months later, is cured as well as it doesn't have ingredients that trigger allergies, just a thought.
The dog food is very important, beware of treats.
by GSDPACK on 22 June 2012 - 23:57
|If you want first hand info on these dogs I have "trained", handled, and seen some of them. A lot of them.|
Some are nice, some are OK and some I would not want for free... but also some of the owner were not very bright and I am not going to blame the dogs only (under-socialized, raised in pairs- littermates, not trained, not bonded to their owners, fear aggression issues, not stable in crowded environments) but again, the owners probably caused most of these issues.
Some of the dogs came to do Schutzhund and failed miserably. But the OP does not want a dog to do any work in sport so he should be fine!
A good friend of mine has a female from there, the nicest, sweetest dog ever. This dog is kinda...well not the prettiest thing but her personality makes her cute. She is really a nice girl, kinda looks like a coyote. This girl is stable and well raised. The owner did a fabulous job with her.
by GSD DEFENDER on 23 June 2012 - 01:55
Good place to report GSD health history and search.
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 02:38
|"Everyone has a right to their own opinion. She breeds the type of dog that we are looking for."|
Awesome. Thank you for your contribution to the demise of the breed. You have, on this forum, access to the information you need to make a good decision about your next dog; you simply choose not to use it. You may very well get a dog that lives a long and healthy life but it won't be a German Shepherd Dog; it'll be a mutt with papers. You'd be a lot more noble to rescue a shelter dog than to pay this person to breed garbage.
by Mcap on 23 June 2012 - 03:56
|Really Keith? That mutt might just save my life some day.|
Have a great weekend!
by GSD2727 on 23 June 2012 - 04:00
|I am sorry to hear about your loss of Milo. I can only imagine how devastating it was for your family :(|
However I am also saddened to see that a situation like this would drive a pet owner into the arms of a backyard breeder who does not seem very ethical :( Very sad... when there are a lot of "smaller scale" GOOD breeders out there who are producing dogs who are healthy, sound and make awesome pets...
And what Keith Grossman says "Awesome. Thank you for your contribution to the demise of the breed. You have, on this forum, access to the information you need to make a good decision about your next dog; you simply choose not to use it. " Is SO TRUE! Excellent post Keith!!!
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 04:26
There are plenty who post here regularly who breed untitled dogs, dogs without any health checks at all including hip and elbow xrays. Even some who intentionally use dogs that can't pass OFA. IMO Mike could have done a lot worse than the puppy he has chosen. He could have bought a dog from one of them.
by GSD2727 on 23 June 2012 - 04:31
|Blitzen, I would not consider those you describe to be the "GOOD" responsible breeders I was referring to :( |
by GSD DEFENDER on 23 June 2012 - 06:40
|Demise of the German Shepherd Dog? Mike did his homework, he trusted some high advertised breeder, and he has a dead dog, tons of Vet bills for the two dogs he bought, and a broken heart! Unlike some of the breeders that tattoo, chip, show, trial, use magic markers and red shampoo, the breeder he chose for his new puppy, is just a plain family hobby breeder with no marks against them, that love GSD's. That's his right, and as I said, like glue, beat the guy up because he didn't pay $800, $1,500 $2,600 and up yet again, to some star spangled kennel, and slammed because he didn't take advice from the know it all's, and spin the dice again, like a box a chocolates someone said, right? As the GSD dog world turns, everyone on this thread know's the truth now!|
by GSDPACK on 23 June 2012 - 06:44
|Changed my mind about posting ....|
by hexe on 23 June 2012 - 08:14
|Umm, GSD DEFENDER, did you bother to look into the breeder and the bloodlines that Mcap's new puppy is coming from? 'Cause if you had, you'd know that Mcap most certainly DID pay more than $800 for this new dog--the breeder lists their prices right on the site (which I don't fault them for, BTW; that's actually a decent thing for a breeder to do, IMO), and it says that puppies are $1000.00 each. Bloodline-wise, this breeder plays both sides of the fence--they've got the same European-import showlines you'll find at the 'star spangled kennel' you're disparaging, as well as the same European-import working lines you'll see at the working versions of the 'star spangled kennel'. |
The testimonials on the site don't impress me, simply because (a) nobody ever posts letters they've gotten from DIS-satisfied customers, so there's no way to tell if there are any or not, and (b) the original breeder Mcap purchased Milo and Rocco from can likely match this one testimonial for testimonial--any breeder that produces and sells enough pups will be able to do so as well. Mcap, I would like to know if you discussed what kind of restitution the breeder of the new pup will make you should this puppy turn out to have any sort of genetic or health-related issue in the future?
I'm not thrilled that the breeder chosen seems to be breeding with an eye toward size, specifically for 'extra large' GSDs, because that's not what the breed is meant to be...yet it seems to be something the breeder places much emphasis upon. On the other hand, it does appear that the breeder is at least conscientious enough to have their breeding stock OFA certified, and not just prelim'ed--though given Mcap's recent experiences, and with Milo's sudden loss, I'd have thought Mcap might seek out a breeder who could also offer some evidence of cardiac certification, along with thyroid certification and anything else that can be tested or screened...
I just hope this doesn't turn into a sort of 'marry in haste, repent at leisure' situation, where Mcap's grief and anger over losing Milo has clouded his rational side, and he's not giving himself or the family enough time to mourn for Milo. The new pup is no more and no less of a 'crap shoot' than any other puppy, though, and may well be perfect in every way, and go on to die in his sleep at the ripe old age of 18 years...so who knows?
by GSD DEFENDER on 23 June 2012 - 10:20
|I posted this link GSD's earlier http://leerburg.com/99bundes.htm?set=1 to make my point. I made the comment on the price regarding the price of the dog that died, not the one he just bought. So if the bloodlines are all the same, what's your point? Someone said "drive the pet owner into the arms of a back yard breeder". I searched the breeder in other ways, no negatives that I found, so far. The long hair in a GSD is considered a fault (I Love them) so is a curled tail, whatever, the star spangled kennels sell them also. When they show up in their line ... they continue to breed the same pair of dogs. It's ok for a big name kennel but a small Mom & Pop it's not ok? |
This thread just struck a nerve because I lived through buying a dog from a big name kennel and got burned (not the heart puppy that I purchased so he wouldn't be tied to a dining room table) and my 13 yr old from a small breeder was a much healthier dog and better experience vs the $1,800 dog that cost $$$$ to Vets and downright hostile experience from a big name breeder. Live and learn, that's how we form opinions.
As far as restitution, It's not an issue because the only way you are going to get it is in court and that's only as good as State law mandates. I think people should try to work out their issues.
by Mcap on 23 June 2012 - 12:49
|Wow...I didn't think I was going to create a monster here. I have spent over $8K in 7 months on two puppies from a breeder that owns several USA Siegers. The place is on 40 acres with complete training facilities and on the outside, looks like the ideal kennel...and it's a half hr from my house. From that experience I have one dead puppy at 6 mos and one that will probaly require meds for his entire life, if he makes it. We are not looking for a high drive working dog, a show dog, or a dog that a little kid couldn't approach without getting their head ripped off. I don't give a hoot if my dog will bite a sleeve. Every GSD I have owned has been highly trained in obedience and that it what I like to do! I appreciate the fact that many of you are concerned with preserving the exact standards of the breed. I have been to some shows where some of the so called "perfect" breed dogs couldn't barely walk because of the angulated rear end. If I wanted a high drive dog I would have bought a pup from one of the other breeders I talked with that were truly "in it" becasue they love their dogs and their customers..... Kennels like Huerta, Alta Haus, and others These people are absolutely awesome!|
I have owned German Shepherds for 40 yrs and I love the breed, but honestly not that concerned if there is a crook in the tail or some other small fault. I don't breed my dogs so I don't need the"perfectly correct" GSD. I have seen many dogs from supposedly great kennels that I wouldn't even consider buying if they were a hundred bucks.
Lastly, I buy from people that I like, and in the case of Milo and Rocco, I made the mistake of buying "them" instead of the breeder. I seriously doubt that the majority of people that purchase dogs for pets have any intention of breeding, so in my mind, many of the issues we see today are caused by established breeders trying to produce the "ultra" perfect dog.
It's pretty easy to find negative comments about a breeder experience on the internet. All you have to do is search. Hexe, if you are so concerned, I would pick up the phone and call Kim at Pathwork, before you slam her. As the old saying goes....Opinions are like xxxholes...everyone has one. Get over it and enjoy life...it's doesn't last that long!
How could you not love this little guy? He's only 8 wks old so please don't give him a complex by telling him that he's not perfect :)
by Sunsilver on 23 June 2012 - 13:10
|Let's see...Patchwork Shepherds...The first stud I click on comes from some very nice looking German showline dogs, all have good hips and Schutzhund degrees, and many are V or VA rated.|
Boss himself has hips and elbows done. He also has a herding title as well as the HIC certificate. Wait -he's oversized. Hmmm....don't I recall there being a big flap over oversized dogs in Germany not too long ago? There even seemed to be a rubber measuring stick that allowed these dogs to be certified as being within the standard.
Okay, he's a longcoat. But the SV recognizes those now, and allows them to be shown. So, what's missing, Keith? He HAS a working title...AH! I get it!
He doesn't have those all-important initials after his name...SCH...so, of course, he's not a REAL German Shepherd!
I see a lot of good stuff on this website. All dogs have good hips and elbows. One has excellent hips. Some have additional certifications (eyes, thyroid, heart). Most are oversize, but with the exception of Boss, they are only slightly over the standard. The owners DO NOT allow their dogs to be used as studs outside of their own breeding program, so they certainly AREN'T in it for the money. They also sell their pups on LIMITED registration, except in rare circumstances, so they are doing their best to not contribute to the pet overpopulation problem. They are striving for the 'golden middle' : a dog with enough drive to work, but one that is still mellow enough to be a good family pet, and be safe with children. It seems that all the dogs that are old enough to be titled have at least a HIC, all are being worked in obedience and some in agility. But I guess Kieth doesn't consider that to be REAL work.
Nope, unless it can bite a sleeve, it's not a real GSD....
And yes, I understand the importance of the breed survey (Koer) system. I also understand that a family with small children may not want to teach their dogs to bite! (Gee, imagine that!)
by fawndallas on 23 June 2012 - 13:19
|Please give Mike a break. He just had a terrible lose. I am sure he learned many heart breaking lessons. How and with who Mike chose to move on with is his own. Be happy for him and move on. Let the criticism wait.|
by Blitzen on 23 June 2012 - 14:00
GSD2727, maybe YOU know better but Mike doesn't. Given any negative remarks made against "some" here are reported to admin and then deleted the OP threatened with being banned should they ever "stalk" and "pick on" them again, he could have been vulnerable to buying into their BS. Some of these "breeders" have free reign to cheat buyers. They make it a habit to PM prospective buyers like Mike who are mourning the loss of a dog offering them a great deal on a great dog.
by Sunsilver on 23 June 2012 - 14:52
|Well said, Bliitzen!|
I've had 3 rescued GSDs in the course of my time with the breed. None of them had pedigrees and were almost certainly the product of BYBs. Two were (are) very healthy. The third came from a home where she was never fed well from day one, and was never a very healthy dog. She had to be PTS at age 9.
So far, my only registered GSD, which cost me over $1,000 bucks, has faded pigment, mild allergies and a mildly dysplastic hip. And no, I don't blame the breeder for any of that. They have very good dogs and try to do everything right. They really care about the breed, and the individual dogs they sell. When the vet botched my female's spay surgery, and she was bleeding internally, they were there for me in a way that exceeded all my expectations.
by GSD2727 on 23 June 2012 - 15:14
|I am not going to comment on the other stuff anymore. Just to say that I stand by my statement, I do not support or agree with buying from a BYB and think the OP would be much better off going with a smaller scale good breeder. |
However I will say... since the comment was made about having small children and teaching dogs to bite....
Sunsilver, I guess I am a crazy mom with a very small child who teaches my dogs to bite. My SchH trained/titled dogs are WONDERFUL with my 3 year old daughter. In fact, she goes onto the bitework field with me and is learning to handle my retired SchH3 female. My daughter knows all of the obedience and bitework commands. Geez imagine that.
by JonRob on 23 June 2012 - 15:54
Well there's the slugfest right on time.
Love the side view of your pup. Nice back, good rear, face that looks like it's got a brain behind it. Hope to see more pics as he gets older.
Just think though if you paid three times more you could have gotten a real GSD that flops around on his rear and has a back that looks like it was broke.
Glad you had the sense to get the kind of GSD that's right for you and most GSD owners. You'll be out having a great time with your new pup while the complainers sit around hollering that any kind of GSD that isn't what they want is a mutt.
God bless and go have fun with Rocco and the new guy. I love it when someone like you comes along and shows some common sense.