German Shepherd Dog > What is considered reasonable (58 replies)
by VKGSDs on 14 June 2012 - 23:10
|"I just don't see how the test, in it's current state, is any more accurate or useful than knowledge of the health and longevity of the dogs in a pedigree?"|
This. Dogs tested negative have been necropsied and found to have DM. I don't think it's *bad* to test but I personally don't put a lot of weight in the test. I'm more interested in the breeder's knowledge of the overall health of their lines than a test that is sometimes inconclusive or wrong. Another example of "oh I'll just pay to have this done so then I can go ahead and breed my dog!" IMO it never substitutes for actual knowledge and familiarity that comes from working and breeding the lines through generations.
by Hedi on 16 June 2012 - 21:57
|It is very interesting what goes on here in the US in terms of breeding. I would say the lax requirements to breed anything here contributes to the excess health issues of dogs in the US...at least with all of the excessive health testing it seems that at least the thought that all of these dogs are "broken". Maybe marketing and money making? So now they are checking cardio in the GSD as well? Is the breed in that bad of shape in the United States? Wow. Almost sounds like a doberman needing to be tested. Yes, her breeding has been very well thought out and the litter was reffered to me by a good friend. Her brother competed at the joint qualifier last weekend. I am somewhat frustrated with her potential and the extreme conditions to get anything done (shows, training, trials) making anything efficent happen almost impossible. |
Sitasmom, ideally I would like an experienced person handle her. I would agree she might go V, but with an experienced handler...otherwise I think SG with someone who is not as well versed.
by Jenni78 on 16 June 2012 - 22:54
|Um, yep. The good ole USA's GSDs are that bad, hence testing for everything under the sun. Some people who do this look "responsible" in some people's eyes. I just look at it as a sad testament to what Americans have done to the breed, that some of this is considered "necessary". Only here do they have problems like Dobermans, as you pointed out. Maybe if we bred for utility instead of trends, and were honest about longevity, we wouldn't be testing GSDs for crap that only bottle-necked American show versions of other breeds have previously been known to carry. I get crucified every time I bring up wanting to see pedigrees on dogs w/certain ailments, but I don't see how we'll have any positive impact on the health of the breed as a whole until we wake up and tell the truth about where the problems are stemming from.|
by vomeisenhaus on 16 June 2012 - 23:07
|I think us americans should be tested for iq, health & work ethic before we are allowed to breed. Lmaooo|
by Hedi on 17 June 2012 - 16:07
|I would not be so brutal in the generalization of all breeders in the United States. I have an adult male that was bred here (from import lines) in the US and I would repeat that purchase in a heartbeat. I have seen several nice dogs that were bred in the US...now please bear in mind I am working dog person so that is my reference point when reffering to a nice dog. Perhaps requirements that focus on the total dog would help out the breeding issues? The dog in question here is an import dog that does come from a long line of workers. Not sure what I will do, but the information communicated here has provided me some valuable insight and I am thankful for that.|
by darylehret on 17 June 2012 - 16:16
|I've not been following the DM topics closely, and would love to see that list of dogs recently lost to the disease.|
by beetree on 17 June 2012 - 18:30
|Daryl, it isn't an official "list". You'd have to make your own from the half dozen or more DM threads that have accumulated on here. But you are good at that sort of thing, aren't you? I'd like to see it too, when you are done.|
by brynjulf on 17 June 2012 - 18:42
|This comment is NOT meant to step on any toes.|
Have the dogs who have been diagnosed with DM and are now deceased been necropsied? I understand that the disease is being misdiagnosed at an alarming rate. When looking at a potential pup I would much rather check with the breeder who knows their lines. Look for longevity rather than relying on this test. By all means test your dogs, I just hope that people will also do the research. I would hate to see really good dogs or lines of dogs condemend or misdiagnosed. When the test is closer to a 50% accuracy rate I will start to put more faith in it.
"I just don't see how the test, in it's current state, is any more accurate or useful than knowledge of the health and longevity of the dogs in a pedigree?"
Science can only be used as a tool. The tool needs to be much more accurate to be helpful. I am sure in time they will get closer to an answer as this is indeed a horrible disease. I think I Scien
by beetree on 17 June 2012 - 20:14
And why would you say that? How many breeders can say what has happened to all their breedings over the course of the years? Remember it used to be thought this was only an "old" age disease. Not so, not with mine, who was young and had the aggressive variety. I have the looks like a duck, quacks like a duck diagnoses, after doing ALL the elimination tests. Remember the year was fall of 2007, (though I might have said once, incorrectly that it was 2006.) Still that doesn't change anything.
I agree, necropsies for all is needed to get to the bottom of this.
by brynjulf on 17 June 2012 - 21:25
|I have to find it bee, but there is a study on the misdiagnosis of DM in GSD. Trust me I am looking for it and it is driving me batty that I can't find it. I always like to post with the information but I can not find that study. I will post it as soon as I find it. I e-mailed a Vet friend of mine who owns a Laboratory up here in Canada. Hopefully she will be able to get the study out to me ASAP :) My point was that as a breeding tool the test is still in it infancy and I would not want people to think of it as otherwise. There are affected dogs out there testing as Normal and vice versa. I personally know breeders who have sent the tests in too BOTH facilities only to get different results on the same dog. I understand how devastating this disease is. But current testing is give people a false sense of hope :(|
by beetree on 17 June 2012 - 21:30
|I disagree about the false sense of hope. "We" know about that. My point is, while it is imperfect, it shouldn't be eliminated because of absolute thinking. That does not promote the steps needed to find the answers.|
by brynjulf on 17 June 2012 - 21:39
|Sorry for the hi-jack. I wouldnt take a penny less than 3K for her.|
by brynjulf on 17 June 2012 - 21:42
I don't think one person on here said to eliminate the test. I carefully read through everyones posts. What is being said is don't use the results definatively, weigh all factors.
by beetree on 17 June 2012 - 21:52
I don't want to derail. Maybe you can start a new thread so we can talk about this in more detail. I have said the same thing, except I will do what testing is available vs. not testing, because there is a need to find out more. And the genetic markers seem to be the starting point. Until there is perfection in the test, is it any more accurate for the rest of us to deny what we see happening before our very eyes?
by darylehret on 17 June 2012 - 22:24
I was assuming that if someone were stating "so and so" many dogs died as a result of DM, they could present the sources to back up that statement. I'm not going to scour the database based on an assumption that's held no interest for me up to this point. The only first hand account I've heard was from the owner of a van den Heuvel dog a few years ago, and I'm no longer certain I can recall the breeding behind that dog.
by beetree on 18 June 2012 - 01:07
|Well, don't assume, just count 'em up. No need to scour, go to the Hot Topics. It is all there.|
by darylehret on 18 June 2012 - 05:51
by dantes on 19 June 2012 - 08:45
|Euros, 2k max. Plus delivery.|
by hunger4justice on 29 June 2012 - 05:28
|Although I like the dogs lineage, I have a 2 year old Leefdaalhof grandson and I paid less than 2000, including shipping. My problem would be asking why are you selling now? Why has the dog not been titled yet. (Mine is not either, but would want to know) I would wonder if there are any issues, even training induced issues. (Not saying there are, just saying if I saw the dog advertised at that age.) I think I would have to see the dog work to make a decision on price. Maybe a video or videos of the dog working. Still I think I would have to see the dog in person. Of course if the dog is all, genetically, that it could be given the lines, then 3000 to 5000 would be fair- and a lot more with the title. Again, IF I knew the dog, saw the dog work, then I would not care about the title.|