Sport/working Enthusiasts > Her trainer is at the same time the helper (19 replies)
Her trainer is at the same time the helper
by mentayflor on 03 June 2012 - 23:35
what do you think about this way to train this doggy?, since the owner (and trainer) got her (at 2 month old), begun to train her, now she is 5 month and he begun using the sleeve. I believed the trainer should not put the sleeve but it is necesary a helper to do this job. In addition I think she even isnt old enough to beguin a formal obedience training wich should be before, although I think at least it could be good to practice beatwork
by Hired Dog on 03 June 2012 - 23:40
|At 5 months she is more then old enough to be doing OB training. As far as the bite training, its typical of teaching a young dog the fundamentals of biting in PREY/play. The dog is not biting in defense, its a game she is playing with her handler.|
by TingiesandTails on 04 June 2012 - 01:10
|way to early to put her on a sleeve - she is still teething and the sleeve is only teaching her pain and at best a wrong grip....just my opinion...|
by mentayflor on 04 June 2012 - 02:08
Besides she obeys the order of the man who has the sleeve , is it good? I think it is confusing for her, she shouldn't respect the person who has to bite , is it good? ii
by LOVE THY SHEPHERD on 04 June 2012 - 03:33
| IMO I would not have the same person training and as a helper. Yes it is confusing to the dog. Bitework at|
that age should wait. Just do drive building and some obedience. Use a flirt pole etc. to keep up her drive.
Probably still teething at this age.
by VKGSDs on 04 June 2012 - 14:43
|^ I agree. I don't put on protection gear and work my dogs in protection nor to I let my helpers/decoys do obedience with my dogs (well I don't really let anyone but me do any sort of training with my dogs). To me protection is not about teaching a dog how to bite or "grip" (that is genetic) and not just about prey or fun and games. The helper should be tapping into prey and defense as well as bringing out power and aggression and fight. For me to do that to my own dog would introduce too much conflict, plus I firmly believe that in protection work (whether it's SchH or SDA or PSA....) we are a team, so I can't physically be in two places at once.|
by magdalenasins on 04 July 2012 - 20:39
|Doesn't matter, she is in prey, barking and playing tug with a pillow not in defense...|
by duke1965 on 05 July 2012 - 04:48
|for the dog it is the same if you give her a ball or a tug or a pillow, its a preygame to her, without pressure you can do this from day one|
by Peter Cho on 05 July 2012 - 18:41
|You just taught a helper is a fun guy. Fantastic. Prey game. Wait a year. Listen to the bark in the blind. Maybe it may even prey jump 4 feet in the air as it barks! More problem. Helper is a dangerous foe. You imprint that from around 13 months on.....balancing both prey with defense. This is at its core what makes Schutzhund different than ring. Helper with a whip.....with a sleeve, even a puppy sleeve, should never ever be a prey game. A helper creates conflict with NO movement. That is the goal of the training......cause guess what they do in a trial? Helpers just stand still. Conflict through the roof! Attack with stick! Dog bites and conflict stops...as long as it pulls perfect. That is why Schutzhund is a team sport and ring, more of an individual sport. I would join a club and do it right.|
by afwark15 on 07 July 2012 - 02:20
|Didn't watch the video, just commenting based on the previous comments...|
There are many trainers out there who work their own dogs in protection, simply because they don't have anyone else. Not the most ideal situation, but with some dogs it can be successful.
Ivan Blabanov, 2 X world champion does his own helper work, on his own dog.
As puppies, protection work starts as a game. putting too much pressure on a puppy can lead to avoidance issues, etc. Playing tug with a puppy even though you are the handler is perfectly fine. building drive out of prey is a good way to work puppies...the seriousness that comes with defense comes with some maturity.
by vomeisenhaus on 08 July 2012 - 00:08
|Good example amanda. Ill give another. 2x 3rd pl in wusv clement julian with dusty van tiekerhook. Watch it on you tube where clement is working him on the backtie. Pretty impressive.|
by Gustav on 08 July 2012 - 15:15
|Though I don't do helper work with my dogs, it really depends on how skilled the helper/owner is. I know people who have done this and the dogs have turned out fine for what they wanted the dog to do. I also know people who have done this and screwed the dog up for what they wanted to do. Without knowing the individual doing it, I will not say that it will be harmful.|
by GSDfan on 10 July 2012 - 03:33
I agree with Gustav. It depends on the dog and depends on what kind of work the owner is doing with the dog and what venue they are training for. It is an area that I tread lightly in personally.
by Elkoorr on 12 July 2012 - 14:20
|Watch the video, look at the pup. The pup is partially in avoidance and is in conflict. Good pup, bad training.|
by Gustav on 13 July 2012 - 13:03
|I know that must have been scarcasm Elkoor, trust me, when this dog is two years old this dog will be successful in whatever Melanie has her participating in. Plus Melanie is a top of the line dog decoy and reads dogs very very well. That's why she has been so successful with Andy and Emma.....have no reason to believe this dog wont turn out to be very successful also.|
by GSDfan on 13 July 2012 - 13:56
|Elkoor are you talking about my video or the op's?|
by Elkoorr on 15 July 2012 - 00:42
|Sorry for replying so late. My comment was for the original video. Its actual a really nice pup with a lot of tolerance and control. But one can see the confusion and conflict that is building up.|
Melanie, your pup looks happy. You working her very nicely. Compared to the OP video you dont bring in conflict; your body language is completely different, your pup looks/acts completely different. I dont see any avoidance there at all. Your daughter (?) is doing a really good job as well handling the line.
by GSDfan on 16 July 2012 - 17:07
|Thanks Elkoorr....yes that's my daughter, she picked up on things pretty quick. She's been watching mom for years lol.|
by Deacon12 on 24 August 2012 - 19:31
|You need to be careful about the teeth...but I think the man has more tricks in his sleeve that most of you understand.|
by Harleyace on 27 August 2012 - 01:05
|Kinda hesitant to reply to OP with my view point....still green myself... But I used bite work to build drive and work on OB at home. Seemed to be a great tool to teach all kinds of things! . I was also very blessed with a great dog who ended up teaching me more than I could have ever read in a book on high drive! Bark and hold, OB, work on on calm full mouth grips, targeting, and building frustration... I thought it was a great tool to be able to use when your a few hours away from a club. Anyways... Here is where we were at when he was 10 moths old or there abouts. Man I miss my boy!|
I used balls on a string, tugs, pillows.... Even a frisby if that's all I could find when he was driving me nuts.