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ForumsMain > American x West German showline crosses? (262 replies)
by Rik on 09 March 2009 - 05:02 |
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by Sunsilver on 09 March 2009 - 05:22 |
| A once in a lifetime dog, eh, Mystere? Funny how they seemed to be a lot more common back then, and no, I don't think it's just us oldsters looking back through rose-coloured glasses. I've heard far too many stories similar to yours. Nice to see there's one thing you and I can agree on! For me, since I couldn't have a dog as a kid, due to my brother's allergies, my once-in-a-lifetime dog was my cousin's farm collie. This was a purebred Scotch collie, they way they looked before Queen Victoria crossed them with borzois to give them that pencil-thin snout and bred most of the brains out of them. Her name was Sparky, she was sable and white, and a little smaller than the Lassie-type collie. We could do anything with her. We played hide and seek, and the person doing the seeking got Sparky to help them out. No one could hide from that nose! One day, a salesman came by when my aunt was home alone. He had a rather loud voice, and waved his arms around a lot. Sparky parked herself between the man and my aunt, and as the man's sales pitch got louder, she began to growl softly. The man took his tractor cap, and whacked her across the face with it, and told her to 'shaddup!' Next thing he knew, he had a set of teeth buried in his wrist. My aunt looked him in the eye, and said, "Now, you asked for that! Don't complain!" She took him into the house to tend to the bite, and that was the end of it. Sparky herded the cows, and guarded the property. When they had to keep her inside in bad weather, stuff would sometimes go missing, as some of their neighbours had light fingers. It's almost impossible to find these dogs anywhere now. The breed is all but extinct. As for the show collie, they are in even worse shape than the American GSD. Most of them carry far more coat than is practical for a true working dog, and something like 40% of them have eye problems. "Collie eye" is so common that most breeders will still breed an animal with a mild case of it. Genetically, they are so inbred that even dogs from different litters are as closely related as if they were siblings. Okay, sorry for the digression...I'll shut up now! But if you think the American shepherd is in bad shape, just check out the collie sometime. I did some research recently, and no one bats an eyelash at doing grandfather/grand-daughter matings! |
Sunsilver by Mystere on 09 March 2009 - 05:29 |
| I am aware of the disaster AKC has made of the collie. It is a sin and a shame. Yes, it is at least as bad as what has been done to the Ambred gsd. So, that's two things we agree on. |
Mystere by Rik on 09 March 2009 - 05:36 |
| Sunsilver, the first dog that my mom allowed me to keep, I named "Sparky" He was from a litter from my Grandfather's collie bitch. My mother would never allow me a dog before him. He was with me all through my early years and I cannot believe that you have brought him back to me. Thanks, Rik |
by HighDesertGSD on 09 March 2009 - 17:16 |
| "highdesert, I would not have normally repiied to this, but since you have seen fit to call me out, lets set the ground rules. Have you bred or finished any AKC Champions. Please post yours and I will post mine.I've been in this "who's bigger" pissing contest many times and I have yet to come out short." What triggered this tirade? Who called you out? |
by HighDesertGSD on 09 March 2009 - 17:38 |
| People can own a GSD for different reasons, or different emphasis of a collection of traits or assets of the GSD. Very simple concept. It is called tolerance and mutual respect. What is the source of such vehemence? I wonder. IMO, the Am Showline has the best comformation. I like the looks of this line the best. I accept that it is generally no SchH material, but I believe most people are not looking for SchH material. My Am Showline girl is still quite protective and she is not a fear biter. She is very sociable with other dogs. I believe she does not have the attention span, aggression, and is generally not intelligent enough for SchH, but she is beautiful in form and in movement, which give me great delight to simply look at her. I am not reserved to state that appearance of a pet is of prime importance to me. Those who think that 50% or more GSD owners want to be in the SchH sport are taking their sport too seriously and are out of touch with reality. I also like the higher working abilities of other lines, and I will soon part with a fair amount of money to get one but it must have acceptable appearance. |
by Mystere on 09 March 2009 - 20:10 |
| Quote by HighDesertGSD: Those who think that 50% or more GSD owners want to be in the SchH sport are taking their sport too seriously and are out of touch with reality. I don't think anyone said anything of the sort. HOWEVER, John Q. Public DOES want a dog that is as free of health issues as possible, is clear-headed enough to be be a good family member, and has a stable, social temperament. Not every WL or European line gsd is suitable for schutzhund in terms of drive, social aggression, work ethic, etc. And, I have seen WL dogs with over-the-top drives who had temperament and nerve so stable that they could easily be suited for families as a pet, albeit, one that would also require a good deal of exercise. Why? Because temperament is FIRST with the WL breeders and enthusiasts, so it is one of the things breeders are specifically breeding for. I don't see that at all in the Ambred lines. Like the German SL, they are being bred with appearance and gait as the first priority. Not temperament. That is, IMO, where the true issues begin. |
by HighDesertGSD on 09 March 2009 - 21:13 |
| "HOWEVER, John Q. Public DOES want a dog that is as free of health issues as possible, is clear-headed enough to be be a good family member, and has a stable, social temperament." This describes my Am Showline girl rather well, as good as any line. |
by HighDesertGSD on 09 March 2009 - 21:37 |
| "Like the German SL, they are being bred with appearance and gait as the first priority. Not temperament." But appearance and gait can be the priority. Why not? Why can't people accept this preference in a GSD or Alsatian or by whatever name? I ask this question again. There needs to be sufficiency in temperament in a GSD. I agree. My Am showline is very sociable with other dogs, very affectionate, stable but also mellower than many imports. She also retains a lot of protective instinct of the breed. She doesn't behave like a Golden. Just try to get close to me suddenly when she is with me. You will know she is not a Golden. Whether she actually can be trained to attack aggressively I can't say. So what is so inadequate about her temperament? My girl is a great asset as an exercise buddy. She has great thick paws, well-arched toes, a deep chest with great aerobic efficency. She is tireless. She fast trots 3.5 miles every two days with me, almost tirelessly, just that I don't generally do more. She is very fit for her own sake, as an animal. So she, I presume, can't "work" much, what is the issue? She has three generations of complete OFA records, two generations H&E, The sire has two generations of OFA H&E. So what is necessarily undersirably healthwise with my pups than imports? So a pup from two roach backs with four generations of hip certification is necessarily significantly less risky? At one time even SV did not certify for ED. I ask again, what mechanisms have alledgedly filtered out other genetic diseases of imported GSDs? Anyone who can't at least suggest the mechanisms should not just throw out allegations. Many problems with the GSD in America is "no line", "both parents on premise" indiscriminate breeding, not the American showline. |
by HighDesertGSD on 09 March 2009 - 22:11 |
| "I'm just reading the usual bashing and for a change I will shut up cause it doesn't do shit to talk on this database anyway!! " The satisfaction is in actually being able to place all of my pups in very good homes, I believe, albeit not at a high price. My pups were sold on their pedigree, appearance of mom and dad, grandpa and grandmom, OFA records, number of GV's, multiple times selects in the pedigree, and their pictures. I got quite a few wows. My major filtering question was: what is your primary reason for owning a GSD? If the answer was protection, I took down the phone number so that the person couldn't call again to give another reason. I say you should better get a pup with SchH parents and be commiitted in training it very well. For most people a dog is a pet, first and foremost. It seems that a lot of perspective GSD owners agree. |
by HighDesertGSD on 09 March 2009 - 22:47 |
| "Like the German SL, they are being bred with appearance and gait as the first priority. Not temperament." I have no problem with "Like the German or DDR or Czech WL, they are being bred with working ability as the first priority. Not conformation and gait." I would prefer a WL with sufficency in conformation and gait for myself. I am looking for such a dog and will eventually get one. Some WL GSD really have atrocious conformation, just like some GSD bred in the USA, or even a few Am Showline GSDs, have really weak nerve. One can't generalize too much. Many WL has acceptable comformation; many American bred dogs, most true Am Showline I believe, has acceptable temperament as a pet with some adjunct protection or other work ability. |
by Mystere on 09 March 2009 - 23:30 |
| Quote by HighDesert: But appearance and gait can be the priority. Why not? Why can't people accept this preference in a GSD or Alsatian or by whatever name? I ask this question again. God, I love your honesty!! One cannot argue with your preference, any more than my preference for Miracle Whip over mayonnaise.  Unfortunately, however, some of us are concerned about the future of the breed, so personal preference sometimes gets lost, disregarded, or rendered irrelevant. Some people have a preference for blue gsds, liver gsds (and I personally think the liver sables are beautiful), oversize gsds, someone somewhere is breeding "condo-sized" miniature gsds, Panda gsds, man-eaters, etc. If one truly cares about the breed (and some of us have very personal reasons for loyalty to this breed), personal preferences can't always be part of the equation. We have seen what has happened to the breed, because appearance was the priority. I wish you well with you girl. You obviously cherish her. I also wish you well in your WL quest. I |
by HighDesertGSD on 09 March 2009 - 23:50 |
| Someday I really like to explore the mind of a human being that does not appreciate appearance and grace in movement, but I suppose it is like music, some people cannot appreciate it. If beauty were not important, then most movie stars would be averaged looking. What, beauty and grace of movement don't have intrinic value? I feel a certain satisfaction from just looking at my Am Showline girl and particularly when she moves freely. She is SOOO nimble and graceful, she have beautiful long stride and beautiful body line. Look, it is not bigamy. You can have different lines of GSDs for different appeal that each line provides. I suppose if the color of a GSD indicates greater chance of some objective problem, like skin diseases, then there is a strong reason to avoid breeding it. If not, there is no problem with liver or blue, or white. (I have read that perhaps with blues there is. Don't concern me much as I like strong colors.) Being more mellow can be an asset to some GSD owners, perhaps the majority of owners. It is not a detraction for all GSD owners, just some for entirely valid subjective reason as well. |
by Mystere on 10 March 2009 - 00:11 |
| What, beauty and grace of movement don't have intrinic value Sure it does!! That's why I can spend hours watching horses jumping at Spruce Meadows and get up at o'dark :thirty to watch the equestrian events during the Olympics! I can also spend time just watching Dobermanns move, too. They are the figure skaters/ballet dancers of the dog world. I love ballet, Dance Theatre of Harlem, Alvin Ailey Dance Theatre, and ballroom dancing,too. I sincerely regret that I never saw Nureyev dance. Can watch dance performances for hours. If I could have only one type of music, it would be classical guitar--preferably played by Segovia. My appreciation for beauty and movement have nothing to do with it. I love a sunset as much as the next person (unless I am driving and hours from home). If I wanted an ugly dog, I'd have a Neapolitan mastiff. I always loved getting compliments on my beautiful gsds at the parks and on the streets. But, I would rather have an ugly gsd with an outstanding temperament, drives and working ability. Right now, I have a bitch puppy who may never grow into her ears, is a bit stretched and has a crook in her tail. I will probably have to show her only under Scheld and only if he is blind drunk to get a solid "G." I would certainly rather she was as beautiful as my other schutzhund dogs have been, but oh well. She works beautifully. |
by HighDesertGSD on 10 March 2009 - 00:21 |
| "If one truly cares about the breed (and some of us have very personal reasons for loyalty to this breed), personal preferences can't always be part of the equation. " I can tell you that I don't care about the breed, if breed means a set of rules handed down by some German guy who lived a hundred years ago. I would say that the need for high drive GSD's decrease with decreasing lot size of homes (and availability of firearms). Herding isn't done much anymore so must the name GSD change? There is also lines within a breed that emphasize different traits of a breed to fill the niches. For the Labs there is field and show lines. |
by HighDesertGSD on 10 March 2009 - 00:26 |
| "My appreciation for beauty and movement have nothing to do with it." I bet it does. I bet you do not appreciate grace in movement and beauty in bodyline in an animal as much as I do, or as much as a large percentage of the public does. |
by habanaro on 10 March 2009 - 00:35 |
| Ugly is truly underated and lower maintenace using less aerosol products on both handler as well as the dog. So being ugly leads to a calmer more fufilling lifestyle. and is better for the enviroment. Yes we really don't need drivey dogs, no need for police, SAR, there are still farmers who use use gsds any real world stuff thats really all just fiction Another piece of fiction is that a drivey dog can't be a well behaved dog. I have had a showline dog and yes she would work.. The german shepherd is a working breed I am not saying there can't be some variation among lines but lets not turn the GSD into the "trophy wife" breed I.E she ain't pretty she just looks that way,,, |
habanaro by Mystere on 10 March 2009 - 00:51 |
| Labs are another breed that "show" has ruined. Have you seen the labs in the AKC show ring? They look nothing like the field-bred labs and lack the working abilities and temperment as well. The show labs are roly-poly dogs that could never walk any distance in a field. Hell, I can outrun them! |
by sueincc on 10 March 2009 - 02:50 |
| Yes indeed, there is a niche. People who want GSDs but in reality are not an appropriate home for a correctly bred GSD. People who want a dog that looks like a GSD but is perfectly content to be home alone all day, watch TV at night with the family, maybe go to the park on the weekends, or if it's REALLY lucky, go for a walk around the block once a week or so. Frankly, I think breeding for this "type" of GSD generation after generation just to fill that "niche" has more to do with making bank and your ego than giving a damn about ruining a once purpose driven breed. Just because you can doesn't make it right. Please stop rationalizing with the BS like home sizes. The market for GSDs with a correct temperment is what it is. What are you worried about, extinction of the breed? Who cares if it is no longer representative of the breed? A GSD is NOT a pretty picture put here for you to look at, it's a WORKING dog first and foremost. You don't dumb down a breed just so you can sell more puppies to the clueless. |
sueincc by Rik on 10 March 2009 - 05:04 |
| Geez, I wanted to respond to some of this, but I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Have to put it off till later. Rik |
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