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Belgian Malinois > Working line vs showline (30 replies)

by DeeBee on 03 February 2010 - 02:02

Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 02:32 am
ahhh the show /working debate 


do you know where the problem lays????

in the people and the segregation of both worlds. it is possible to have both a good solid working dog that is able to compete in the ring. The reason I say this is I own another working breed and I work  them and they do great  working top of their class but guess what....I showed a couple too.

The show world breed for coat length color fullness stride eye shape  and train-ability
The working world breeds for endurance drive - then with GOOD breeders breed for specific areas if the dog is multi task driven.

more breeding thougths I am sure but I will not go into that due to this will be a story without all the reasons of both worlds

this is the problem both worlds have their heads so far up their "head" that they can not see what they are missing on both sides

I would think that the person that is breeding for all those qualities for both show and working will end up BETTERING the breed...cause they give a crap about the breed and not about what they can make it or change it to. The care about keeping it as it is a good solid dog with very little issues. can any of you say you have not seen the temperment issues of the "extreme" working mal or the lack of drive in the show mal

the mal is the most diverse breed yet and to say it is only good for one area or only accept or promote it for one area is in its self destroying what this breed is all about. It is more than a one job dog and from what I can see many working kennels are so focused in their one area they are not able or not willing to see what the dog was used for

I personally have seen many good show working lines being able to do the job as pure working lines...the idiotic notion that one can not do the other shows the irresponsibility of the breeders, and the slow destruction of yet another good breed ...I see it first hand with many breeds....so shame on both worlds for making the start of the destruction of a good breed.

by making it what they think it should be to suit them and not keeping what it is a healthy solid dog



by Phil Behun on 03 February 2010 - 04:02

Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 01:43 am
Because the show shepherds are such a great example of the breed?  Have you witnessed the performance routines at conformation events?  Have you seen the AKC version of the GSD and had a chance to witness them work?  How can you say that a dog that performs the work that it is bred for has incorrect conformation?  Show us the results of which you speak.  Show us the performance records of these "show" dogs that are performance champions.  To me, as long as the dogs health is sound and the work is supreme, it's a conformation champion.  I would be not be disappointed if the breed were not even recognized by the AKC.  I would much rather see the DMC Korung introduced here in the States as an evaluatory tool over any conformation rating.  That my friends, would separate the men from the boys and eliminate some of the garbage that we are seeing being advertised as "extreme" and "both sire and dam are working K9's".  Just tell me bloodlines of puppies, that's enough.  These days every Tom, Dick and Goober with a Ray Allen sleeve is a dog trainer.  Ahhh, for the good 'ol days when the breed was for purists. 

by BigSwill on 03 February 2010 - 16:02

Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 01:46 am
I agree, Phil. I think that the term "extreme" is used WAY to loosely. What the vast majority of people call extreme I call normal. Of all the dogs I've seen, regardless of breed, I can count on one hand and not use all my fingers the dogs I would say are extreme. And the fact that one or both of the parents are working K9's doesn't mean much these days. Most of the K9's I've seen  have to be "easy to handle" due to the inability of most K9 handlers. I've met VERY few handlers who could deal with a truly extreme dog. But then again what I consider exteme would probably be a liability to most PD's. That type of dog is better suited for Special Ops in the military.

It is possible to have a dog that can compete in both the working and show venues, but you're going to be average at best in each venue; the dog won't be a show stopper in either. The Belgian Tervuren is another example. 20 Years ago this breed was considered a more sport type breed. Now to get it in the show ring, it's been tempered through breeding for a more laid back attitude. I train with a guy that has one that he shows, and you can forget quality bitework out of that dog. He's more apt to bring the decoy his ball than anything.There will always be the segregation between the 2 worlds because each breeds for different things. I don't think showing in the ring is really a job. I can train anything to stand still while some old blue blood feels it up and watches it trot. I can't train just any dog to search for dope or maul a tree stump on command. It's got to have that potential genectically. 

I go back to what I said in an earlier post. High drive dogs are not for everyone. So instead of breeding the drive out so the thing will stand still in the show ring, people who can't handle the drive need to move to another breed.  

by Phil Behun on 03 February 2010 - 17:02

Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 01:43 am
Amen

by malinoid on 03 February 2010 - 20:02

Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 05:56 pm
"I personally have seen many good show working lines being able to do the job as pure working lines...the idiotic notion that one can not do the other shows the irresponsibility of the breeders, and the slow destruction of yet another good breed ...I see it first hand with many breeds....so shame on both worlds for making the start of the destruction of a good breed.

by making it what they think it should be to suit them and not keeping what it is a healthy solid dog"


Rarely, if ever, have I seen a showline dog of any breed be able to compete with a workingline dog of the same breed in a performance event. Up into the late 1980's, virtually no one outside of Holland, Begium and France even knew what a Malinois was. The breed did just fine with the majority of people breeding the dogs for work, the proof is in the pudding. I mean, up until 20 years ago no one was breeding mals for show, but all of a sudden in the last 20 years breeding for conformation has become acceptable, when for the last 100 years everyone intimately involved with the breed was working them in KNPV, NVBK and French Ring. The whole thought process is backwards. As was said earlier, there is little to no evidence that the Malinois was used in any great capacity as a herding dog since its inception as a breed (late 1800's). I understand that before that time the dogs that pre-dated the breed were herders in many cases. The destruction of the working breeds doesn't come from those who continue to work the dogs. I've heard the same rationalization that you're using applied to the Dobe, Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer, GSD, etc. Those breeds are largely under-represented in working venues BECAUSE a large portion of breeders & fanciers have convinced themselves that their dogs can do work by virtue of their ancestry. I don't have a huge problem with people showing their dogs in conformation, but there is a huge difference between showing your working-bred & worked dog and showing your show-bred dog or breeding dogs based on a subjective conformation standard and attempting to work them and then tell the rest of us that function follows form, instead of form following function. I agree that some of the IPO and French Ring lines can be very hectic and have crazy prey drive that is hard to live with, but this is less common in the KNPV and NVBK lines, that's the beauty of it. I know this is the case in the Border Collie as well, the Flyball bred dogs are often very driven and hard to live with, while the traditional herding lines are not so much. The thing is you can choose and have a choice, but nowhere in the equation is the notion of breeding to a subjective conformation standard, that quite frankly does not take into consideration trainability.

by DeeBee on 04 February 2010 - 03:02

Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 02:32 am
 again

all I hear from the above comments is about "bite work" I do think I have said this before that the mal has MANY areas of working jobs they do other than just show or bite work this is why I made the comment that some breeders are too focused in the one area of work and not seeing what the dogs are used for in other areas of work...so the question is left to the ones own perception of what the definition of "work" is.

and that is the reason I mentioned that when we focus on one area of breeding(which bite work is only one area) we forget to breed for everything the dog was originally we then are breeding and changing and diversifying genetics to suit our own needs and wants . and guess what that is the sole cause of how working breeds have been destroyed in  he first place.

!There is almost
nothing a Malinois won't try if encouraged by his master. These dogs
excel at obedience, tracking, agility, flyball, herding, showing,
Schutzhund and other protection sports, search and rescue, police
work, and just about anything else a dog can do. There are even
Malinois who lure course and dog sled


now take the other working breeds that have over the centuries been bred to make a standard for one purpose you wreck the very thing that makes them a solid working dog..the diversity of abilities.  So in fact with only breeding for bite work the working breeder is producing a dog that no longer genetic represents a dog that could possible be used in sars or herding or detection as they have genetically altered through breeding programs a dog more specialized in areas for just bite work dulling the other natural abilities and enhance just one area.

now over time what do you think will happen to the dogs abilities in other areas if we Just focus on the one ability ?
I see in searching kennels 3 areas

dogs that can do bite work
show dogs
other-herding sars, sledding,therapy etc
now which areas do you think have the most breeders? not the other category yet the bred EXCELS in anything it is introduced to so why are we narrowing the breed to better suit a few areas

by DeeBee on 04 February 2010 - 03:02

Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 02:32 am
 I wanted to add I am all for a well bred working dog but after being in a few dog shows and pushed aside for the dogs being TOO much working and then being pushed aside from working people when I do not have the extreme dog...yet they can work and achieve the same as the working dogs in comparison and yes it may take longer but the working dog can gain titles in conformation.

the problem ...not the dogs or the lines but what each group perceive the "best" type of dog.
so we in fact are working against ourselves take a look at the Siberian. A good working sibe take forever to gain titles in conformation due to lack of coat head structure etc not a high point on working kennels interpretation of the breed they want a serious dog that will do the dog and do it well. Then the show sibe has a amazing coat good structure but could not work a day in its life other than pull around the kiddies in the yard but have good temperments and have health testing unlike the working lines that do not see that a huge part of the breeding program.

the mal world has to only look at other breeds and see how when the breed is split up into defined groups how it makes the dog no longer a working dog but a dog that can only do one thing

by BigSwill on 04 February 2010 - 04:02

Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 01:46 am
There is a gentleman in Cal. that breeds Airdale terriers. He breeds them to hunt hogs. He's been doing it forever. The first bitch he got was out of showlines, but had basically been culled by the show people because all she wanted to do was hunt. As he got deeper into his breeding, he started to breed all of the working ability back into his dogs. He bred them for larger structure, high hunt and prey drive, a body structure that would allow them to fly through the brush after the hog. After a few years of this, the showline folks that came out to look at purchasing one of his pups told him that by breeding the working drives back into the dogs he was ruining the breed. Just a few years ago, the showline people started coming out to look at his dogs because, after many generations of breeding them to work, his were now closer to the "book standard" than anything else they could find. I found that to be very eye opening. Mals can and do excel in many venues; it's a mal that has the world record for height in dock diving. And any dog that has the ability to do K9 work is typically good at pretty much everything mentioned above. But when coat thickness and the perfect wither height starts to take precedence over how well that animal can function in the herding ring or on the SCH. field, someone, somewhere has lost sight of what a dog was supposed to do. NO dog was originally bred or created to stand in the show ring. If people want to show their dog of choice I think that's great; it beats just leaving it sitting in the back yard. What most people don't understand about breeding is that when you're breeding for working ability, it's pretty near impossible to breed for just ONE thing. If you breed for good genetically full grips, what comes with that every time is a dog that has good prey drive, which makes them easier to train due to the fact that they will do anything to get that toy in their mouth, and those are the ones that usually have good OB. I do understand what you're saying, believe it or not. But like I said earlier, a dog that CAN do both is going to be average at best in both venues. If a person is content with average that's great. But I want my dogs to be better than that.

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