Main > Helmut Raiser interview; what do we want GSD versus Malinois drives/nerves (53 replies)
Helmut Raiser interview; what do we want GSD versus Malinois drives/nerves
by duke1965 on 22 May 2012 - 07:41
|in World of K9 magazine is a Helmut Raiser interview where he raises this next question|
What do we want in breeding; a very high drive dog with relative thin nerves that we can shape with positive reinforcement and clicker or do we want a dog like Max v. Stephanitz wanted: medium thresholds, good nerves and pronounced aggression. That’s where opinions vary.
Now what happened with all the modern training like shaping clicker and so on, the dogs are trained without this way of conflict and that in its self was seen as a great value. The benefit was that dogs with thin nerves and high drive could be trained to high results, because they have their conflict already on this low level of stress. In old school training these dogs after getting pressured and got some stick hits they were gone and nobody wanted a dog like that for breeding, now a days they pamper these dogs for years and secure them technically. You can pressure them and give them stick hits and they will still bite and stay in the fight.
Then the Malinois came in the picture and presented its self as a high drive dog, generally speaking a dog with thinner nerves and lots of drives and highly adaptive.
by Koach on 22 May 2012 - 10:30
|Though I prefer today's training methods vs the way we trained in the 70's I prefered the dogs from back then. What is missing in all sports is a way of testing the dog's reponse to "real" stress.|
So I vote for the IPO biting exercises to be judged as an indication of fighting drive, courage and a combination of prey/defence. I also vote for the return to the Stephanitz qualities of medium high prey and medium thresholds and good nerves. Also pronounced aggression when the situation justifies it.
I do sports with my dog (French Ring) because I think it is more demanding than the IPO of today, however it is still a prey dominated sport and even in Frnch Ring dogs with surface and other similar probems can be conditioned and trained to succeed. If I wanted a points dog for ringsport or IPO only then I would go with the Malinois however I want a dog that I can live with 24/7, take on canoe trips, jogging, hiking, play with the grand daughters and sleep quietly by the fire when we don't have the time to play ball with her.
by Bob McKown on 22 May 2012 - 11:28
IPO should be recognized as a sport title only and there should be a breeding title that use,s previous standards of judgeing. That has real stressors and makes the dog show real quality in the work.
by judron55 on 22 May 2012 - 11:41
|I agree with Helmut concerning the drive and courage issues...in obedience, you can see where people want flashy...fast...reactive obedience. Heads looking straight up without concern for all around them. Fast retrieves...fast send outs....rocket recalls....robotic responses to everything. I reference Ginoginelli von Karthago and Kuba vom Fluchtweg as examples of the extreme in the German Shepherd.|
by duke1965 on 22 May 2012 - 11:55
|I dont have a problem with flashy obedience as long as the dog can back it up with solid nerves and good courage for me flashy ob doesnot equal thin nerves but oftenCAN be found in the same dog|
I think bob has a good point there to forget about IPO as a breedingtest , but the other option is to turn around the way of judging in IPO to really judge the dogs capacities and not only the trainers capacities
by Bob McKown on 22 May 2012 - 12:36
You will never get IPO judging to change it,s too political and influenced by political correctness. A real breed worthyness test could be implemented for those with breeding asperations with the GSD. That shows a dogs abality to work on there own under stressors that make the dogs true temperment and nerve a major foundation requirement. That test has already been there we just need to use it.
by duke1965 on 22 May 2012 - 12:48
|and what test whould that be Bob|
by Gustav on 22 May 2012 - 13:00
|I am in line with Bob and Duke on this one. IPO is sport and lets accept it at that.....we need a new test that looks similar to the way things used to be for assessing breed worthyness. Like Helmut says, back in the day the toughness of the test would expose the prey monsters with thin nerves and nobody would breed to them.....thus not glutting the market with them. Today with the current training techniques and bar lowered in the sport.....almost any dog that will hold on for 5 seconds on a drive can pass. Dog can be "finding comfort in the sleeve" but will still get good score, and then people flock to dog and breed to them. This needs to be flushed out like Helmut is doing, cause this is what we are seeing in procuring GS for police....thin nerves or little courage....yet titled!|
by Bob McKown on 22 May 2012 - 13:02
Just the Schutzhund test as it was with real stick hits no pads a reed stick a vertical wall the excuse that dogs got hurt was bull shit. The old style catch instead of the long prey bite now. A real attack on the handler excersise not a vertical run across the field. The quality of the dogs fighting spirit judged.
I train with people who trial at the top and I take nothing away from there sucess,s it,s hard to train at that level and win.
by Sunsilver on 22 May 2012 - 13:12
|Bob, what's the 'old style catch'? How is it different from what they do now?|
by Bob McKown on 22 May 2012 - 13:24
Helpers correct me if i,m wrong.
You stand with your dog on the field at the end with the find blind and #5 in the center the helper comes out of the #5 blind and runs away down the center of the field towards the #1 and #2 at the judges call you release your dog and the chase is on and at about 10 to 15 yards from the dog catching the helper the helper turns and comes back at the dog with force and pressure the dog must strike hard and grip well with fighting spirit. Atleast thats the way I do it with my dogs.
by Sunsilver on 22 May 2012 - 14:10
|And the current catch is with the helper standing still as the dog runs towards him from a distance, right?|
by UglyK9 on 22 May 2012 - 14:21
|Bob and Sunsilver, niether method is correct according to trial regulations. In IPO 3 the handler/dog goes to end of field. At judges Cue helper leaves blind 6 at a run to mid field and turns toward dog and handler. The helper should continue running at the dog and handler giving a stick/verbal threat from a distance and before the catch is made and should contunue forward momentun all the way through the catch. At no point should there be any running away or prey movement. immediately upon catch the helper drives the dog.|
by judron55 on 22 May 2012 - 14:24
|Bobs example of the old style courage test is correct...the prey style now requires nothing more than a stationary helper...and puts no pressure on the dog....the watered down psuedo courage test is right in line with the AR mess. I train with people who trial at the top level also...and while I appreciate the time and effort....some of the techniques take away from the dog....IMNSHO!|
by judron55 on 22 May 2012 - 14:29
|and should continue forward momentum all the way through the catch. |
That sounds good in theory but, usually never the case....
immediately upon catch the helper drives the dog.
that sounds good also...but, all dogs don't attack the same way...getting the dog to the ground, safely is the first step...then the drive.
by Bob McKown on 22 May 2012 - 15:01
It must also be said this type of catch is harder on the helper. You would want a exceptional helper on that end. For the dogs well being as well as the helpers.
by UglyK9 on 22 May 2012 - 15:33
per helper program guidlines which I was siting
"According to the Trial Regulations the dog should be caught without the Helper coming to a halt. A better description is to say that the Helper should not be coming to a standstill before the actual catch"
I know there are variances as to how things are actually done and each helper has his style, but above we were reffering to how it is to be done in the guidlines.
Also, obviously we are not going to go into a good, hard, safe drive until the dog is on the ground.
by UglyK9 on 22 May 2012 - 15:49
|Judron, you on the back half correct?|
You look to be keeping forward momentum right up to the point of impact (very nice catch). you also show very nicely, getting the down down quickly and safely and into the drive.
Ok, wont get off track to much more as to what the original thread was, just hought we should all be clear and what the guidlines say pertaining to the courage test. Although it is not as tough as the old style, I still dont think it is a prey movement.
by Koach on 22 May 2012 - 16:10
|Also the gunfire test in IPO is too easy being done during OB at a certain distance. In French Ring the gun is fired on the bite and it is 9mm and not a 22 cal.|
As mentionned previously lets bring back some kind of wall and the attack out of the blind in IPO.
Since most members of the RSV2000 (Helmut Raiser's group) reject the Malinoisation of the GSD then I hope that they will come up with a serious test/title that will confirm the dog's qualities for breeding according the the Stephanitz standard.
Good thread Duke.
by ziegenfarm on 22 May 2012 - 16:24
the biggest change i have seen in the past 30+ yrs in gsds is the shift from intelligence to drives. the gsd was always praised for its extreme intelligence, now you rarely ever hear anyone mention it. its all about drives, drives, drives. there is a point where the drives take the wheel and the intelligence takes the back seat. i believe we have already crossed that point. there are 3 clear divisions within the breed now. show dogs, sport dogs, and a very few true working dogs. true working ability requires intelligence in the dog and the ability to reason and work out problems. in a real working situation, the results are not predictable as they are in a sport event. when sending the dog after a real bad guy or an errant buck sheep you don't know how it is going to play out. training will tell the dog what his job is, but intelligence and problem solving skills will help him accomplish it.