Training and Obedience > Michael Ellis (31 replies)
by Pirates Lair on 22 May 2012 - 05:15
|-As my husband says, a quite dog makes a much bigger impact than one that announces he is going to bite. At least in real life; things might be different in a show ring.|
Not to derail the topic, but; (and I believe you meant to say a quiet dog)
In real life (unless specifically trained/required to do so) a dog must bark, in order make an impact and announce that they are about to bite! As Hired Dog pointed out already.
Here is one example, Body Language, and he also barks in certain sistuations.
by Pirates Lair on 22 May 2012 - 05:38
|-I am not sure why this is so difficult for anyone to understand...it applies to everything and everyone, including us humans in everything we do..why should it not apply to our dogs?|
by magdalenasins on 22 May 2012 - 11:15
|Not everyone can read body language but almost everyone knows what a bark means.|
by fawndallas on 22 May 2012 - 15:25
|YES YES YES Pirates...that is what I want in a protection dog.|
I do not want to derail this topic, but I do want more information. Maybe what I had seen of "bite work" was one sided, which put me off on it.
Pirates, mind if I PM you off this topic, but about more information?
by Pirates Lair on 22 May 2012 - 16:11
|Sent you a PM|
by magdalenasins on 23 May 2012 - 17:55
|fawndallas, what do you think is special in Marko that you don't see in other protection dogs? Not saying he isn't a nice dog as he obviously is but all I see is a dog trained to bite and out when told to. Which should be the standard basics for a protection dog?|
by Pirates Lair on 23 May 2012 - 23:26
|- fawndallas, what do you think is special in Marko that you don't see in other protection dogs?|
Allow me to point out the control, and the fact that Marko spits out the sleeve and engages the Decoy (who is wearing a hidden sleeve).
Please post some video's of "Professionally Trained" dogs that can do the same.
I know of only several and would appreciate seeing more.
by fawndallas on 24 May 2012 - 02:12
Most of the videos I have seen for bite / protection work, the dog just seems so out of control with barking and snarling. As I have never been that interested in bite work for show, I never paid much attention other than thinking to myself ("each his own, but no way in my household").
by magdalenasins on 24 May 2012 - 12:46
|Thanks fawndallas that makes sense. I think that sort of reaction that is posted in a lot of videos is to make owners feel really badass to be honest and doesn't actually prove much. Kim like I said that's a very nice dog and I am not questioning his level of control or training just wondered what fawndallas was seeing. I don't have a video library of protection dogs on youtube or anything sorry lol. Sorry to derail the thread. |
I do have all the Michael Ellis dvd's now to put it back on track lol.
by Shezam1 on 31 May 2012 - 03:18
|As someone has pointed out, no dog training is possible without "timing" and "consistency" - the two things that make inter-species communication easy. There are ways to master timing - I take youngsters without an educational background and train them to improve their timing with a simple exercise to start with. They hold a ball in one hand and a clicker in the other, throw the ball up and learn to time the click when the ball reaches the apex and again when it hits the ground/hand on the way down. Same thing can be used with a 'word' (in place of a clicker) as a 'marker' like in the ME system. You will be surprised to see how badly some perform at first and how well they master timing with a little practice of this simple exercise. Cheap digital 'still' cameras that can take video (and mounted on a tripod for self debriefing) are another easy way to observe and improve mistakes of timing. The youngsters are allowed to graduate to actual training only when they have perfected "timing". Using motivational training methods beats every other method as it produces dogs that enjoy learning and working and are not afraid to try new things. Mixing motivational methods with aversive ones destroys the 'bond' and impedes progress. That having been said, I do not deny that there may be a place for the use of mild stimulation with an e-collar to fine-tune a dog for the highest levels of competition - a dog that already knows everything. I have all videos of Michael Ellis (besides many, many others) and find them better than most, especially if you are starting with a puppy. Though a bit more cumbersome to handle, I also find that the unique sound of the clicker makes it easier to get the message across than a 'word marker' with the associated inflections that tend to make it less consistent. There is always some food that the dog will be crazy about even if it appears not to be food oriented, one just has to discover what that is. As Michael points out, food as a motivator is ideal to start with in the learning phase as it allows for more attention on learning than the intense prey drive that a tug or ball evokes which is more appropriate at later stages in adding strong compliance and speed to a learned behavior. S|
by SecureBorders on 08 June 2012 - 01:46
|Michael is a great trainer and his Leerburg DVD series is good. But, note that Ivan Balabanov regularly has high end dogs trained and ready at about 14 months old. Ivan is different but he is a master.|
by Dobermannman on 08 June 2012 - 02:29
|How do you know the dogs are "trained and ready at 14 months" when you can't do a IPO I until the dogs are 18 months old? Also lots of French Ring (and Mondio Ring) trainers teach all the exercises for a Ring III|
before they ever trial for their Ring I