Conformation Showing > Mr. Donald asked me a difficult question (115 replies)
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 17:56
|Now let us look at a 47% chest dept, all lengths are calculated in same above explained method, but all angles remained the same.|
Ok 47% chest depth standing, ideal shoulder
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 17:59
|Corresponding full reach |
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 18:08
|So between the reach of a 45% chest depth of a ideal GSD and a 47% chest depth of a ideal GSD there is a difference of 0.68 cm which represents decrease of approximately 1.5% of that reach of the latter in one stride. Not much of a decrease.|
One interesting point
If you sum up all the lengths of bones of the ideal GSD of 45% chest depth you find it 72.49 cms.
And the sum up of the lengths of all bones in the fore assembly of the ideal GSD of 47% depth you find it 72.72 cms.
The difference is 0.23 cms which is approximately nothing. Just a side remark
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 18:13
|Let's see what happens when the chest is 50% of the height.|
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 18:41
|Ok 50% chest depth standing, ideal shoulder|
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 18:42
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 18:45
|So in case of an ideal GSD of 50% chest depth the fore front reach is 41.73 cms|
that is a 1.84% less than that of the 47% chest depth GSD and 3.4% less than that of the 45% chest depth GSD and this is a valuable decrease. So those who said in the standard chest depth should not get more than 50% know what they're talking about. The more chest depth the less front reach and as it gets closer to 50% the decrease in front reach gets worse.
Lets see the sum of bone length, it's 73.5791, an increase of 0.86 cm to 2nd GSD and 1.0 cm from 1st GSD.
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 19:14
|Just to explain this 3.4% less fore reach, say when dog 1 and dog 3 cover a distance of 2000 meters with their front arms dog number one needs to make 4360 strides.|
While dog 3 needs to make 4793 strides, that is 433 strides more, imagine the extra fatigue the 3rd GSD shall endure. So again this is the endurance and efficiency the standard talks about.
I want to highlight one important thing here, what I did is only make drawings to illustrate what the standard says, I'm not inventing a new thing or making a new theory here, no not at all, many explained this in papers, studies and books, what I am adding here is a simple demo to show the importance of correct conformation and give some due value to the people who wrote the standard, they know what they're talking about and they put their accumulated knowledge in the standard.
It would be nice if people share their knowledge of practical and actual experience of dogs in regards to effect of chest depth on the front reach. Thanks
by Ibrahim on 13 June 2012 - 19:34
|One last thing about effect of chest depth|
For GSDs of same height at withers, same shouler angle, same front upper arm angle, same pastern proportion to front arm, same pastern angle, same well balanced fore assembly and same good open of joints in full fore reach
The deeper the chest
1. The less front reach
2. The longer the shoulder blade is
3. The longer the front upper arm is
4. The shorter the front arm/leg is
5. Ther shorter the pastern is
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:19
|So as shown above the less the chest depth and therefore the relatively (in terms of proportion) longer fore arm/front leg the better the front reach, going back to Dingo, he had a long front leg and a less chest depth, look|
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:24
|Some may argue that my lines representing the shoulder blade and front upper arm are not very correct, that might be true as it is a guess work where the point of front upper arm is, but the chest depth is very clear and very close to reality and we can safely say Dingo had a near to perfect chest depth.|
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:31
|Now let us see the effect of pastern length.|
This is a standing dog, pastern is 25% from front leg at correct angle of 22 degrees
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:34
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:42
|This is a standing dog, pastern is 30% from front leg at correct angle 22 degrees|
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:43
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:47
|We can see that the dog with longer pastern gained 0.40 cmas and that is a gain of approximately 1%, a side note if you look at Dingo he had a relatively long pastern.|
If you remember the total bones lengths of fore assembly in ideal dog of 65 cms height was 72.49. In this case were the pastern is 30% from front leg the sum of all bones lengths is 72.64 cms with an increase of 0.15 cms which is negligible.
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:57
|And let us see the effect of pastern angle|
This is a standing dog with 25% pastern from front leg but at 30 degrees.
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 08:59
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 09:03
|As you can see there is a gain in reach here (more than that dog of 22 degree pastern) of 0.80 cms which is 1.85%, which means increasing the pastern angle almost has double the effect of increasing its proportion from the front leg, interesting (Ah I'm not suggesting breeding for weak pasterns here, no just demonstrating the effect on front reach, lol.).|
If you remember the sum of bone lengths of a 65 cms high ideal dog of 22 degrees pastern was 72.49 cms, in this case when the pastern is set at 30 degrees the sum is 73.16 cms, with an increase of 0.67 cms. Just a side note here, change of angles has more effect on total bone lengths than inter-change of proportions. Also a note increasing the angulations increases the total sum of bone lengths. Also it means that the show line which has deeper angulations than those of the working line dog has longer bones.
That needs longer and stronger muscles and tendons !!! Just thinking !!!
In another thread Susie mentioned that the Sl has long muscles while Wl has thicker muscles, does that have to do with bone lengths !!! Just wondering !!! Come on guys just let me know at least you're following
by Ibrahim on 15 June 2012 - 10:59
|Ok let's go to the shoulder which is as a matter of fact more complicated and has gig effect on the front reach due to 2 angles involved and two lengths of bones which make a valuable sum of the total bones lengths in the fore assembly and I assure you I have no knowledge of the exact outcome other than the general scientific logic I did in the very beginning of this thread through which I analyzed each component effect on front reach in general without exact dimensions like I am doing now. What I'm doing now is more precise as various components when they change in proportion and or in angle cause make consequent changes on the other components.|
Let's just keep in mind the line of ideal balance (center of gravity) or whatever you may call it, which Mr. Donald explained in his study and which is of extreme importance and effect on proper basic assembly of the fore of the GSD.
Lets see first the 45 degree shoulder and 45 degree front upper arm which (if were possible in reality) would make the premium shoulder assembly.
This is an ideal GSD in standing, but with 45 degrees in shoulder and in front upper arm (most experts argue this case is not possible and not achievable) (more real is a 45 degree in shoulder and 53 degree in front upper arm)