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ForumsMain > Curious why so many embrace the DM DNA test? (149 replies)
by Blitzen on 11 April 2012 - 02:52 |
Marj have you ever even considered the possiblity that just maybe you are wrong? |
Blitzen by Gwenith on 11 April 2012 - 02:56 |
| My intent was never to discourage anyone form the test. My feelings about the test are my feelings. If it works for you fine. For me I see it has issues for GSD's. In fact owning two corgis as well I am not convinced it is in that breeds best interest. My older corgis breeder refuses to use the test. Me I have used to test on all 3 of my dogs. Whether I feel it reliable or not. It is what is available. My dog is very sick, and I believe 99% that he has DM. It remains to be seen if he has DM or not but I have as of today arranged with his internist to do necropsy as it is ONLY way to confirm DM. There is nothing else available to confirm the disease except necropsy. I really just want more evidence. In the meantime this is at this time still a "free country" to choose to do what one feels is best course of action. I have been in touch with several universities today in regards to brain MRI's. Both Universities have told me this is being looked at. Late stage or not I feel that to be necessary tool that can be used. The DM DNA test is cheap, no reason not to do it. Other than I don't see it very reliable, but that is my gut feeling and opinion. That is my right to opinion and freedom of speech at this time. Who knows what the future holds there? Gwen |
by Gwenith on 11 April 2012 - 03:05 |
| Blitzen, do you have any idea how long Marjorie has been involved in researching DM in GSD's? Much much longer than Dr. Coates. No doubt about it. I am amazed how supposed dog lovers have not even begun to learn the biggest lesson dogs should teach each of us. It is called "unconditional love and compassion". I am amazed dog lovers are so judgmental. Certainly not a charecteristic of our beloved dogs. Gwen |
by hexe on 11 April 2012 - 03:11 |
| I don't think anyone with even the most minute grasp of science thinks for one second that the present DNA test for DM is the be-all, end-all, 101% accurate diagnostic tool for this disorder in GSDs, or in any other breed for that matter--it's far too soon for anyone, or any institution, to make such a claim. BUT--for the moment, it's what we got. The FLASH test wasn't the be-all, end-all, 101% accurate diagnostic tool for this disorder in GSDs, either, but it WAS the FIRST tool that was even available, and it gave us SOMETHING to work with for a start. Between the FLASH test, and the tremendous amount of work that Dr. Clemmens and his staff did researching the disease and treatment options, and all the fundraising and educational efforts that Marjorie put in as well, these folks ALL are owed a tremendous debt by anyone who has ever loved a GSD, and even more so by those of us who have had a GSD with DM in our lives at one time or another. WHY this in-fighting, though? HOW is THAT helping the breed? |
by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 03:24 |
| ----> Marj have you ever even considered the possiblity that just maybe you are wrong? No, because the science proves I am right- DM and ALS are two entirely different diseases with entirely different test results and symptoms, and they do not even mix and match. They have nothing in common aside from being two terrible diseases. Marjorie http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
marjorie by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 03:25 |
| Let me correct myself- I am wrong and have been wrong about things in life- but NOT this! Marjorie http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
by Blitzen on 11 April 2012 - 03:33 |
| OK....let me ask this once again - why discourage the fancy from using this DNA test and submitting DNA samples to Coate's project? It been acknowledged that it's not perfect, it should not be used to eliminate dogs from the breeding pool and is intended as another "heads up" for breeders. |
by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 03:39 |
| ---> How do you go about finding funders Marjorie? I am curious. One really needs the support of the AKC and all the political crap that goes along with them and their organization. They are a very closed group and have their pet researchers, one of which is Dr Coates. Either you play their political games or you dont get funded. One of their officers admitted to taking Dr C's work from Dr C's web site, and *running* with it, rather than funding him. Nice, very nice behavior. Not my definition of ethical behavior. Even McDonalds wont let employees or family members particpate in contests run by the parent company! The director also awarded the grant to study DM to a researcher who worked at his very own university, after the work was lifted off Dr C's site! Need I say more? Either one is in the *in crowd* with the AKC or they are out. Sadly, they are the ones with bucks and without them, its very hard to get funding of the major dollar type, which is what is needed. I compiled a book entitled "Things I Learned from my Dog" and sold it with all proceeds going towards DM research. I auctioned off walk on roles in the HBO TV Show, The Entourage, as I have known the prodcucer since he was a kid, and he is a German Shepherd , so he gave me the walk on roles to auction off, but it doent bring in the type of dollars the AKC has at its disposal. I, [personaly contribute heavily to DM research, but again, not the type of bucks needed to move mountains,as has been the case with Coates withte AKC and OFA behind her. Its all political bullshit. |
by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 03:45 |
| ---> The FLASH test wasn't the be-all, end-all, 101% accurate diagnostic tool for this disorder in GSDs, either, but it WAS the FIRST tool that was even available, and it gave us SOMETHING to work with for a start. Yes- exactly- a start, and it was started utilizing GERMAN SHPHERD DNA!!!. Other breeds didnt even have the allele which Shepherds had, to even have a change to, to even test! Dr Clemmons never made the outrageous claims that are being made by the U of Missouri, nor did he lump all DM into ONE category. IN fact, he always believed that DM of the GSD was unique. All breeds can get a chronic and degenerative spinal issue, but that does not mean they are all the same disease. |
by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 03:54 |
| --- > OK....let me ask this once again - why discourage the fancy from using this DNA test and submitting DNA samples to Coate's project? Because I would rather see the money going to DM research that pertains to the type of DM our breed develops, and that is NOT ALS!!!! Is that really so very hard to understand????? I am sad to even think of any dog of any breed getting DM, and the emotional toll it takes on one living with a DM dog. It hurts my heart that Missie T doesnt have a long time left on this earth, as well as other GSDS with DM, and all that money going towards a type of DM which our breed doesnt get. I want the money to go to helping the Jack Flash's and Missie T's of the GSD world. Let the Corgi Boxer people support their own research- we need to support research for OUR OWN breed! Marjorie http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 04:08 |
| ----> WHY this in-fighting, though? Because politics is playing a role- a HUGE role, in who gets the research money, and people dont have enough knowledge about DM to see this test for what it is, in relation to GSDS. Its the Emperor's New Clothes. No one who truly loves the breed, who has a thorough knowledge of DM would be shelling out bucks for a test that does our breed no good- they would be fighting like hell, just as I am, to see that research money benefit our breed- not another breed, not another's ego, not supporting outrageous claims, not supporting an automatic clear of progeny from two GSDS declared *clear* via this OFA test, when years of generational follow up have not been done and they have knowledge of a clear dog found to have DM upon necropsy. Its just HS! Why the hell would anyone with knowledge of DM support a test that says GSDM is ALS when it very clearly, is not- not even close???? Marjorie http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry BE PROACTIVE! http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group |
by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 04:37 |
| Oh, and some history.. years ago Dr Coates believed that DM was a muscular disease brought about by gastrointestinal problems for which methionine would be the golden fleece. Of course, her research showed that was not the case- that was the research in which she only dx 3 out of 12 GSDS correctly, with DM upon necropsy. Not only was DM not a muscular disease, too much methionine is actually harmful to dogs. So- that was scenario one now we move to present day.... DM is now a motor neuron disease, according to her, and it is ALS. never mind that the etiology doesnt match, the diagnstics dont match and the presentation of the diseases are polar opposites. Now, on the ofa site, under explanation of test results, it is suddenly being acknowledged that perhaps DM is not caused by the same things in different breeds. I wonder what the next scenario will be- I wonder if it could be caused by the Gamma Rays in the Man in the Moon Marigolds... We shall see.... At this point, nothing would surprise me... |
by beetree on 11 April 2012 - 10:58 |
| If that is the case Marjorie, is there a non-profit organization whose mission is in-line with yours? Simply understood by me as, researching the cause to find the cure for GSDM? Do you know of other Vet Universities who have ongoing DM research as well that tie more closely with your findings? |
beetree by Blitzen on 11 April 2012 - 12:08 |
| Marj, somehow I think that implying that any and all who don't subscribe to the DM/MS line of thinking are stupid and not concerned about the best interests of the breed, may not be the best approach to soliciting any sort of support for Clemmons et al? You have said more than once you are not out to make friends and I get it, but honestly a little less argumentive attitude might benefit your cause in the long run. Snide and demeaning remarks like - is that so hard for you to understand ....gamma rays.....people don't have enough knowledge to see this test for what it is...the Emperor's new clothes.....no one who knows anything about DM etc just doesn't get your entire message to the right people. Most don't read much past the second insult in any of your posts, go on the defense and then cannibalistic in-fighting begins. I and many I know are trying to do the right thing by DNA testing their breeding stock. We love the breed and are concerned about the future every bit as much as you. There are quite a few people right here on this board who own dogs with active cases of DM. We would be your strongest ally I promise you if you would not always imply that we are incapable of understanding anything much beyond how to tie our own shoe laces. " No one who truly loves the breed, who has a thorough knowledge of DM would be shelling out bucks for a test that does our breed no good- they would be fighting like hell, just as I am, to see that research money benefit our breed- not another breed, not another's ego, not supporting outrageous claims, not supporting an automatic clear of progeny from two GSDS declared *clear* via this OFA test, when years of generational follow up have not been done and they have knowledge of a clear dog found to have DM upon necropsy. Its just HS! Why the hell would anyone with knowledge of DM support a test that says GSDM is ALS when it very clearly, is not- not even close???? This is the attutude I am talking about, Marj. It's never your message....honestly. |
by beetree on 11 April 2012 - 12:43 |
| Exactly, Blitzen. It is not too long ago or farfetched to think about the wasted energy and dollars caused by scientific misconduct. (NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU MARJORIE) It is just the reality of it that makes everyone else responsible for their own due diligence. Which brings me to wonder as well, what are your research qualifications? Degrees? I don't recall having heard this before, so sorry-- if you will be repeating yourself. You do not take the title, "Dr.", is all I know, really. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy |
by Gwenith on 11 April 2012 - 15:19 |
| OK, I do believe that GDs's get a different type of DM. But what about the Berner's, the Swiss Moutain Bernese? 2 carriers and 1 clear in that breed. Dr. Coates has said she is aware there is another gene involved in that breed. Of course has not isolated it yet. The disease is not just GSD's, corgis and boxers. It is Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Chesapeak Bay Retrievers, Aussies, GSD's, corgis, boxers, irish setters, and I a terrier that slips my mind. What gets me is each of the dogs/ breeds have different DNA to make that breed. How they are all being lumped into a disease like ALS is just strange. One day it may be that each breed has some form of DM, and a few may have ALS like syptoms. But certainly not all. The fact that Dr. Coates is going back to drawing board for Berner's says she knows she doesn't have that breed right. The way I look at Dr. Clemmons is the way our Gov't treated P. Tesla. They destroyed his work time after time until he died. All along backing T. Edison because he was part of the "bloodline". Then the Gov't stole Tesla's work and kept it in secrecy. Now we have H.A.A.R.P., in Alaska, all because of Tesla and his genius. I am very against H.A.A.R.P. As would Tesla have been. But they made sure he was passed away before utilizing his findings. He was by far a greater scientist than Edison ever thought of being. I think this is similar case...."money talks, BS waks... Gwen |
by marjorie on 11 April 2012 - 15:38 |
| Lets leave the science of the diagnostic tests out and just look at the presentation of the disease. That is why it is so hard for me to imagine that anyone with a true knowledge of this disease would confuse the two- and that leads me to believe that people really are not thoroughly ecucated about DM, but rather parrot what the AKC spews. It is accepted because it is advertised and shoved down people's throats. A shitload of money is spent pushing these tests because they bring in a shitload of money- there are patents involved on procedures and dna strands. Its bigtime money!!! BIGTIME!!! Lets not forget the true AKC- they wanted to register puppies at pet stores, so please dont tell me they care about dogs. They see $$$$$$$$$ and thats all they see. ---ALS does not affect a person's ability to recognize touch." ---GSDM you can pinch the foot of a dog with GSDM, hard, between the toes (most sesntive spot) and they wont feel it! how can this be reconciled with ALS not affecting the ability to recognize touch? ---ALS Patients usually maintain control of bladder and bowel functions ---GSDM patients lose both bowel and bladder control ---Not all familial ALS cases are due to the SOD1 mutation, therefore other unidentified genetic causes clearly exist." In fact, only 10-20% of people with familial ALS have a change to the SOD1 gene.. What about the other 80-90%? Only 2% of people with non familial ALS have a change to their SOD1. ----The parts of the body affected by early symptoms of ALS depend on which muscles in the body are damaged first Some patients first see the effects of the disease on a hand or arm Other patients have difficulty chewing or swallowing ---GSDM always progresses from the rear, moving towards the front of the body. Difficulty swallowing only comes after the patient is down, both rear and front and the brain stem begins to become affected. Frankly, I cannot comprehend how people cannot comprehend this, thus my belief that most peopple do not really understand DM, or perhaps, they dont want to understand it and dont want to take the time to educate themselves. Its just easier to believe what the monied publicity just keeps on pumping out while they continue to rake in the $$$$$$$$$$. |
by beetree on 11 April 2012 - 15:42 |
| Also, I would be interested to know if you have a case for support written, to give a presentation to prospective funders? |
by Blitzen on 11 April 2012 - 15:57 |
There is a very good discussion about DM on the germanshepherdhome.net breed board. I don't want to link the discsussion here, I think that's against the TOS, but I 'm sure a little surfing around that site will allow you to read it all. Marj has offered some very interesting points. I have to say I enjoyed reading them very much and wish we could intiate and maintain a more civil discourse here on this somber topic. |
by beetree on 11 April 2012 - 16:03 |
| Blitzen: You can post a link and make it easy for us, too...lol... I don't want to sign up to have to figure it out..... AND, Marjorie are you a qualified researcher? I seem to have missed the answer to that? |
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