Sport/working Enthusiasts > 12X SchH 3 (60 replies)
by workingdogz on 29 April 2012 - 10:05
Would you also agree, that in trialling a dog repeatedly
for a SchH3, your goal is always to 'beat' your own last
score? You will also learn a LOT about your dog along
You get to see how the dog handles the stress of daily
training, both physically and mentally, travel, staying in
hotels, being around non-dog people, (you know,
the kind who walk up and try to hug your dog? ).
Does the dog display any type of dietary/gastric issues,
ie: nervous stomach etc. Hard to keep weight on due to
demands of training etc. Or, does the dog come home/back
to the hotel and pass out on the floor, sofa bed etc after
eating pizza with you?
There are some dogs that cannot trial anywhere but their
home field, they get freaked out 'leaving home', car sickness,
A dog that is 25x SchH3 all on his 'home field' is no where near
as impressive as a dog that is 25x SchH3 at regional, national and
If you even THINK it's easy, then get your ass out
there and show everyone else how it's done!
Show us all how easy it is to 'pattern train' that dog and
win the big tests! Post your podium pics here!
To those that have never done it, I'm sure it looks easy, heck,
there are some pretty damn cool & collected kid handlers
coming along that make it look like a walk in the park--
so if a 7yr old can do this:
All the experts that never leave their yard should
be able to step on to the podium with ease!
Dogs with weak nerve and temperment do NOT
make it to world events, nor do they hold up
to the rigors of daily training in all 3 phases.
They will start to break down mentally.
Stress in one phase will always show up in another.
But you will only learn these things when you get out and
Put some miles on tracking, work on achieving speed
and precision in obedience, and maintain power and
correctness in bitework too! Trial in all weather,
all types of tracking conditions etc.
And then sit back and grind your teeth when someone
comes on a board and talks about how simple it is
by susie on 29 April 2012 - 10:37
by Slamdunc on 29 April 2012 - 12:38
by darylehret on 30 April 2012 - 01:18
by Donnerstorm on 30 April 2012 - 01:22
by Slamdunc on 30 April 2012 - 03:17
But it proves nothing of the dog, IMO. And, if you really want to broaden your personal experience, I'd be more impressed with a handler who's trialed 10 different dogs one time, than one dog 10 times, wouldn't you?
Many of us have titled and trialed multiple dogs, that is not what the OP was about. What proves something of the dog to you? Buying a puppy from a well known kennel, then using it as a stud? I'm much more impressed with breeders that actually do something with their dogs. Conformation showing, agility, Ring, PSA, Schutzhund, Rally, OB, Herding, anything other than just having dogs run around their yard.
by darylehret on 30 April 2012 - 05:04
|I know that's not what the OP was about, but workingdogz mentioned it, and I believe YOU did also in earlier posts. I was expounding on those comments, because it somehow keeps coming up.|
by susie on 01 May 2012 - 00:11
"So Suzie, why the applause, when you are one of the very ones talking how simple it is and what little it demands of the dog?"
Still SUSIE, my dear... You read the sentence but missed the point ( maybe my English isn´t good enough...)
Training and titling dogs may LOOK simple for the spectator, but it´s a lot of work, months or years of training in rain, snow, and heat.
AND you need to know what you do, a lot of people don´t and never will,
as YOU quoted well
by darylehret on 01 May 2012 - 02:02
|I do not disagree with you at all, but I believe the primary focus of this topic has been what is demanded from the dog, and consequentially what is revealed about the dog. And, as I've already mentioned, I would think it more useful to judge how a dog responds in truly novel situations, rather than situations it has been conditioned and desensitized toward. That's all, and I am also done here, as to refrain from repeating the points I've made already.|
by workingdogz on 01 May 2012 - 14:46
|People that train and trial know it's never 'the same'.|
Different fields, different helpers, different judges.
Judge may decide at the last minute to reverse the
order/direction of the blind search, the retrieves and
the send outs. Maybe Gottfried Dildei was out recently
and there is 37lbs of cut up hotdogs on the field too?
It's also 97 now and super humid, and we have to do
the long down in the blazing hot sun. That lucky bitch
Susie got to put her dog in the shade!
Oh, did I mention that John and his dog going for
SchH1, well, his dog broke on the off leash and
came over and tried to screw with my dog?
One cannot control tracking conditions. I may draw a nice
dewey track with lush grass, Susie may draw the sparse
sandy/gravel goat path that Joe Blow's Golden Retriever
in heat just pissed on, or, a deer pissed on,
or a rabbit popped out right in front of
the dog--or the list goes on and on and on.
Or the farmer's dog down the road comes and wants to play.
Or, because there are so many SchH1,2's and 3's,
Susie might have to wait almost 3+ hours to run her track,
where I got to run mine after the minimum age time.
It could be 95 and humid when Susie runs her track,
but a balmy 60 when I do mine. Susie might have to
slog through a tract of standing water, my track might
be prisitine. I walk off with a nice 99 point track (christ I can dream),
And Susie slides thru with an 81. Who's dog worked harder?
Then again, we might all be fucked, and the field the club
chose is a nice sod farm that was cut & treated
2 days before.
In protection, the helper may be a weak one with no presence,
and our dogs may drag him around like a doll, yeah, I know,
out means out, but if the fight is still there, why should my dog
out when we have taught him that as long as there is movement,
there is fight. Newbie trial helpers screw up and give extra stick hits,
or jam my dog-ergo my dog bounces off and fails, but Susie gets the
GOOD helper and her dog shines. The judge may like to stand
right in the blind beside the dogs while the H&B is done,
maybe he likes to smack his clipboard with the pen to see if your
dog can be distracted?
Maybe I drove across 3 states and got to the hotel at 2:30AM
only to find out there is a raging party going on too,
and even though I want to sleep as does my dog, we can't
because MC LOTTANOISE and his 'posse' is here living
large at the Red Roof Inn.
Did I mention we have a 6AM track time?
When you start to look at scorebooks and see where the dog is
consistant and at what level, and where he loses points, then you
can start to figure out if it's dog or handler.
Low 80's in B tells me the dog usually has retrieve issues,
so it's up to me to find out WHY.
Are the point losses handler created?
The mere fact that one could believe that it's the same each and every
time shows how little one actually knows about the whole process.
Just like watching videos and surfing the internet, it seems really
simple, but when the rubber meets the road, it's NOT.
by susie on 01 May 2012 - 18:30
|Didn`t want to answer any more, but -|
WORKINGDOGZ, you got it !!!
by workingdogz on 01 May 2012 - 22:58
|susie, I didn't either, but to let the uninformed statements|
stand is not fair to those that work hard with their dogs!
I didn't bother to touch on International competitors,
I know what it's like for us to travel without a dog, and I
have spoke with enough world level competitors to know
how nerve wracking it can be with a dog, especially a dog
you plan on going half way around the world with and competing.
Certainly the dog has to have good solid nerve and temperment
to be able to travel around the world and compete in 3 phases.
To make blanket statements that numerous title repeats is
not any way to evaluate a dog is just plain silly.
No way can you duplicate the exact same trial environment
each time. So yes, looking at the dogs trial history tells me
alot about the dog. Once again, different fields, different countries,
different judges, different everything.
The only constant is the rules of the game. And that is the baseline
we can all use anywhere in the world. SchH3-IPO3 are the same rules
and regulations in every country. The only way to have kind of a level
by darylehret on 05 May 2012 - 19:37
|"The only constant is the rules of the game." |
I wouldn't even be brave enough to make THAT statement. Anyway, what "more" are you going to learn of your dog when you take it to susie's field and judge? Not much, so the philosophical blanket statement effect might as well apply to anyone who said ANYTHING in this ridiculous thread. The only point I learned here, was that SOME people have to argue over just about everything.
by VKGSDs on 07 May 2012 - 16:46
|For me training and trialing are what *I* make of it. I did a BH yesterday, easy-peasy (did it in warm weather in the sun after the dog had just done an AD) but guess what....I DID learn something about my dog and my training even though we passed and performed every exercises perfect or damn near. I don't really care what people on a forum or on the sidelines think about my dogs or my training or my trialing. I trial when I want to where I want to for the reasons that *I* want to and whether that means holding a dog back and not trialing, or trialing the same dog repeatedly is not really any random person's business.|
by Slamdunc on 07 May 2012 - 20:45
I agree completely! Too often club members try to pressure members into trialing dogs that are not ready. Or the handler is not ready or just doesn't want to trial at that particular time. You are exactly correct in trialing when and where you want for what ever reason with your dog. It's your dog and your time, dedication, training and hard work.
by workingdogz on 08 May 2012 - 00:12
|VK & Slam, Susie etc,|
It's pretty obvious, at least to me,
those that 'do',
actually 'get' what I am saying.
Those that don't, sit back and yipyap
about how it won't tell you anything
to repeat a title on your dog.
If only there was a way to make a
multi colored chart that would break this
down into a much more simple explanation
by VKGSDs on 08 May 2012 - 01:18
|I also trial for myself. I am the biggest thing holding my dog back. I get nervous trialing (even for a dumb CGC!) and tend to sort of cramp up, get real stiff, make my dogs anxious. Sometimes I trial my dogs when I know they are not going to be as good as they might be down the road, but I never trial if I think we're going to look foolish. The only fail/NQ I have with all my dogs is one Level 1 agility run where I barely knew what I was doing. The more I trial, the better handler *I* become and thus the better my dogs can show off because I'm not acting weird.|
Training is where my priority lies and where I learn the most about my dog and have the most fun *but* there are definitely things I learn about my dogs in a trial situation that training just cannot replicate.
Now I don't have any 12X SchH3 but who am I to speculate about why someone would do that? Why not just ask the handler? I would think that someone with that accomplishment would be willing to talk about it and should be proud of it. The only thing I can really relate it to was when I was a gymnast. Say I master a new, difficult trick...do I compete it once successfully and drop it from the routine?! Hecks no, I keep on competing it until I either can't compete anymore or I replace it with an even better trick!
by darylehret on 08 May 2012 - 07:06
|workingdogz, what you're saying isn't all that difficult to "get", believe me. You've just sort of lost the point, and deviated on your own. If you can't tell enough about a particular dog in ONE hour's time on ANY given day, I see no need to waste any more time.|
Trialing multiple times is done for other reasons, I would hope, and I don't at all disagree that it demonstrates more about "the team", the commitment, and the development of handling skills.
But, as a measuring stick for evaluating THE dog, the multiple titling is not a useful way to presume much of a dog's worth in my book.
by workingdogz on 08 May 2012 - 09:51
I am impressed at the diversity of your dogs.
I am also impressed that you were in fact able to
title them in so many varied venues, all while being
'far too pretty' However did you manage?
It appears that the only criteria some need for
evaluating breeding dogs is that they
are fertile and can jump on and off rocks.
Most other people that actually
have experience with the breed prefer to stick with
using an established and consistant format that is
recognized world wide to evaluate dogs.
It would require those experts to have to get off
their ass and out from behind the keyboard and
actually get their dogs out there in the real world
to know what the rest of us are talking about.
There are those that sit back and belittle the achievements
of owners and dogs with such ease it's
sickening, and yet they have NO CLUE what it takes to
get one title, let alone 12 or more.
Until then, they can always make some more colored charts,
regurgitate some more genetic graphs, and talk about
how shitty titled dogs are as they back another one up to
make some more puppies from untested dogs.
12x SchH3? How about no times ANYTHING???
Oh, don't forget to mention that the puppies
are linebred XXXXXX times on 'Yoschy' in the ad too.
I won't give any more of my time to trying to
explain this, some don't get it, won't ever get it.
Mainly because it's easier to sit back and do nothing.
by darylehret on 08 May 2012 - 11:19
|So how many times SchH3 before being breedworthy to you? Post a pedigree of one of your dogs, and let's see how many of it's ancestors attended multiple events. Especially females. Then, let's examine some of the most influential producers of today's standing lines, and see how many times they had to prove themselves in the field, and to what level, before they were deemed worthy as producers. That "established format" you mention is FAR from consistent, as being able to measure what produces well and what does not. But don't waste your time, you may never get it.|