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ForumsSport/working Enthusiasts > Schutzhund and only schutzhund? (142 replies)
by ramgsd on 08 February 2012 - 16:22 |
| Myret you spent some time talking about the dogs people in Denmark won't use and how most GSD's won't pass a SAR test..... Perhaps it's Denmark's breeding program that needs to be taken a look at. |
by myret on 08 February 2012 - 16:29 |
| I agree about the show people but here In Denmark dogs must have a IPO/schh 1 or PH for breeding and a UHP that is 20 km ride after a bike and obedience after to see If the dog Can handle to work after a very long ride and hé is tired thats the same for males and females working dogs or showlines |
myret by myret on 08 February 2012 - 16:47 |
| Ramgsd Thère are many requirement In Denmark If you want to breed gsd They must have a PH title or Schh/IPO 1 They must be able to pass a test of 20 km where you ride a bike and after this obedience to see If the dog is still able to work after this long run They must pass a FP test to see If the dog is able to walk In the City between people not be intimidating towards other people and be social and you must be able to tie the dog up at a shop go In the shop while someone Will pas by your dog with another dog and the dog must not act aggressive or it Will not pass |
by myret on 08 February 2012 - 16:47 |
| Ramgsd Thère are many requirement In Denmark If you want to breed gsd They must have a PH title or Schh/IPO 1 They must be able to pass a test of 20 km where you ride a bike and after this obedience to see If the dog is still able to work after this long run They must pass a FP test to see If the dog is able to walk In the City between people not be intimidating towards other people and be social and you must be able to tie the dog up at a shop go In the shop while someone Will pas by your dog with another dog and the dog must not act aggressive or it Will not pass |
by myret on 08 February 2012 - 17:12 |
| I Think most have to dó with the breeders they cant take criticism of the breed and wont Maybe because they dont have such High standards A's I dó Just like here gsd people or many other always has an argument when and why the gsd has this or that I also see that the working Line are getting more and more anguled behind it just looks awfull with those angulated hindlegs and back and becomes worse and worse they The breeders of working lines wandys their dogs In kl 1 so they look more like a show lines |
by johan77 on 08 February 2012 - 21:33 |
| Myret, well as you know common SCH-lines are also doing KNPV, french ring, swedish program, so apparantly they can do other things, look up vidoq de valsory, a 100% SCH-line dog after ellute doing ring 3 quite well it seems. I haven´t seen that almost "every working GSD" could do SCH as well as many kimbo offspring, they seems to have good fightingdrive,good strong barking and fast attacks, your welcome to show me other dogs or studs that have produced so much better. Lexus is also proven outside sport, which can´t be said about many other studs. But kimbo is just one dog, you have everything they have in germany in denmark too, plus dogs like tabo, so if you can´t find a dog in denmark you be hard pressed to find it anywhere else. But of course all dogs used in a given country is not in you are my taste, denmark or holland or everywhere. I don´t think you should expect a PSD do everything like a sportdog and compare them, slowing down to catch the bad guy is probably more practical than jumping high and long like a flashy sportversion of the couregetest on a plain grassfield. But sportwork and servicework is not the same, dogs that you think are boring could be much better in service than these easy to train highly preydriven malinois and some GSDs.s I could show you example of that if you like. The older dog seemed to be much slower and "boring" looking than many of todays sportdogs, so was it better in former times despite the less flashy sportdogs, or is it better today;) Considering nosework and SAR-type of jobs is standard for many PSDs in scandinavia it´s strange if GSDs can´t do this, especially since denmark has almost only GSDs in policework, and they are many GSDs in finland,sweden, norway too doing tyipe of work. Or are you talking about some elitforce of SAR dogs that should be used in hotter climates? |
by vomeisenhaus on 09 February 2012 - 00:00 |
| Good post johan... I highly doubt a criminal is going try and "SAFELY CATCH" a dog. You can't compare a dog trained is psd to a sport trained dog. High prey is great but I want to have the whole package myself. For what its worth myret I thing ring shows a dogs athleticism more than its ability to do real service work. In short. Keep us posted on your puppy as you progress in training. What are your goals for your new puppy? Right now I'm very satisfied with my opal x noeska tiekerhook pup. Very drivey little bitch. No one is gonna win any arguement on here. To each his own. But what you are saying is tha most of the dogs from kennels SALTZTABLICK, MAINEICH, ADELEGG, KETSCHER WALD, MOHNWIESE and many others lack DRIVE & HARDNESS. That is quite a bold statement to make from someone with your vast experience. I'm out and good luck with your pup. Sincerely. Kurt |
vomeisenhaus by workingdogz on 09 February 2012 - 00:45 |
| vomtreuenhaus wrote: 'Alot of what i notice is the AKC show people that dont even health test, or temperament test, or do any kind of sport with their dogs, but breed because it is an AKC Champion, or from such-and so, and its rear touches the ground and has the best gait etc etc, THOSE are the people bashing Schutzhund and many of the other sports. 1. Because their dogs CANT do it, 2. tis cheaper for them to not do it and 3. Theyre too lazy to do it, but will justify breeding their dogs because they are champions etc. I truly havent seen many of the Sv standard breeders, or Sch people talk badly of it. I HAVE seen some trainers, and alot of club members, etc, speak of how alot of the titles are fake and some judges (more so over seas than here) are paid to sign the books. But have not seen anyone knock the sport itself...other than the changes that have been made.' Actually, some of the biggest bashers on this board and others of the sport of schutzhund are the same ones that don't work/title their dogs. But, I find it so humorous that these same 'experts' will brag about owning a titled dog, or will carry on about a dog being linebred on _______________, which incidentally is also a schutzhund titled dog. You can spot these 'breeders' and 'experts' easily by their ads for the puppies they produce. They will focus on the litter being from 'imported parents', or 'linebred ______ on ____________' etc. It is not a perfect sport/system, but if it is used honestly to evaluate a dog, it works pretty damn good and has for many many years. |
by Slamdunc on 09 February 2012 - 01:30 |
| WorkingDogz, Good post. Myret, I haven't read all of your posts but the 12 mile Bike ride, temperament test and titling is the same for a SchH title and breed survery. That is really not a big deal, the minimum anyone should do before breeding a dog. I noticed Johan stated you made reference to Police dogs, Now I will have to go back and read some of your posts. |
Slamdunc by Slamdunc on 09 February 2012 - 01:41 |
| Nevermind, too much double talk and double posts, boils down to way too much work. |
by workingdogz on 09 February 2012 - 01:46 |
| LOL Slam Lot's of running in circles, I agree! Pick your sport of choice, and no matter what, someone will be able to poke holes in it and tell you why it sucks. It just so happens it's usually someone that has done nothing but typed on message boards. Anyone that has spent time at the end of a tracking line, or teaching a send out, a transport etc will tell you that while there may be holes in the 'sport', it's still a pretty solid starting point. Sure beats keeping Ol' Wonder Dog in the back yard and claiming how great/tough/for real etc he is or skipping rocks!  |
by myret on 09 February 2012 - 09:53 |
| vomeisenhaus I dont think experience to do with my taste in a working dog at all. I hope to be working him in mondio but we only have one little training facillity here , with very few members so Im not sure that I can get the experince in RING I need because the danish is not very experienced in this sport as they are to schh so if I cannot train him in mondio I will title him in PH . I hope to title my female this year to a PH title and retrain her from a schh 1 to PH I have titled my male dog in PH I do have a small child so I dont have much time for training as before I got kids so we will se what time can bring slamdunc I agree we have been through this subject many times and its the same and samr we are writing |
by myret on 09 February 2012 - 09:54 |
| slamdunc I have never writtien that the 20 km bike ride is hard just what the requirements are in this country to bred gsd |
by myret on 09 February 2012 - 10:04 |
| johann77 Im talking about certified rescue dogs nothing to do with police dogs they have to pass some tests to show that they can be proffessionel working dogs and could be used wordwide when there are hurricanes that have destroyed buildings and earthquakes so they have to prove they can work in other climates than the cold danish weather. they have to prove that they can keep drive when searching for people in building search. well Johann I know Vidoq but one in many does not mean a thing sorry. I would never want to buy a dog here with only schh titles in their pedigree I would not want to buy these dogs , then I could just get a poodle istead almost the same dog in a different coat and certainly not many of the lines used here I only like fero,aly,nick lines mostly and these are not the prefered lines here and they only have schh titles ,no thanks I think I'll pass or get a mal instead they surely almost always have more drive than gsd I would rather get a czech lines instead of all wl |
by myret on 09 February 2012 - 11:26 |
| just some of the few schh I like my favorite just http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgM0M1tZVdQ Love this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juO8Z3ZSB-8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWj5hhnbpIg KNPV titled http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=104794&new_lan_en http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-LiWzg-7NU If we look at the pedigree of many of these dogs some of the good schh lines goes again and again like Nick,Aly, Trold,Yoschy, Fero,Gildo ,asko von der lutter |
by myret on 09 February 2012 - 12:39 |
| Johann77 here are the statitics over the paticipant in SAR here and where the gsd and why they dont do well as a working dog
RUIN Search-55 participants, 18 passed
1) Malinois
2) Malinois
3) Malinois
4) Border collie
5) Malinois
6) Jack Russel Terrier
7) Tervueren
8) Malinios
9) American Staffordshire Terrier
10) Golden retriever
11) Labrador retriever
12) Golden retriever
13) Malinois
14) German Shepherd
15) Golden retriever
16) Labrador retriever
17) German Shepherd
18) German Shepherd
Blind search 55 participants, 9 passed
1) Malinois
2) Border collie
3) Malinois
4) Short-haired Dutch Shepherd Dog
5) Border collie
6) Bernese
7) Golden retriever
8) Malinois
9) German Shepherd
Here in tracking the gsd best traits where they are number one.
SPORSØG-11 attendees, 3 passed
1) German Shepherd
2) Riesenschnautzer
3) Airedale Terrier
The distribution of registered breeds was also following with last year's WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS:
1) German Shepherd = 32 dogs
2) Malinois = 23 dogs
3) Golden retriever = 16 dogs
4) Mixtures = 15 dogs
5) Border collie = 11 dogs
6) Labrador retriever = 10 dogs
7) Beauceron = 4 dogs
8) Tervueren = 3 dogs
8) Flatcoated retriever = 3 dogs
8) Berne sennen = 3 dogs
8) Dutch Shepherd Dog = 3 dogs
12) Rottweiler = 2 dogs
12) AmStaff = 2 dogs
12) Riesenschnautzer = 2 dogs
15) Airedale Terrier = 1 dog
15) Mellemschnautzer = 1 dog
15) Doberman Pinscher = 1 dog
15) Australian Cattle dog = 1 dog
15) Czechoslovak Wolfhound = 1 dog
15) German short-haired hen dog = 1 dog
15) Australian kelpie = 1 dog
Parson Jack Russell Terrier = 15) 1 dog
And so 2 dogs I can't find the breed on-the one shortened PON, and the other ASH.
So it is actually something which very many breeds can be with, but of course only a few races at the top ....
And here are the statements the chairman of the SAR dogs have stated why the gsd does not have the working abiliies that is required
As I see it:
Ruin Search:
* Agile, they must be played across all the junk and up by almost vertical concrete surfaces. In some cases the climbing of ladders to get into buildings, etc.
* Drive, it takes place July in France/Croatia/Austria/Switzerland and the dog must search for up to 40 minutes in a row. The dog must find up to 6 decoys without being rewarded by or between the decoys.
* the power to stay focused and in drive, they must go on many unpleasant things that is noisy, often sliding down of concrete surfaces and so must still press ahead while passing strangers around the ruin area and there is a part there is noise and if applicable. also fire in the area.
* mental and drive ,dog fall down of concrete surfaces, it must have the drive to even understand how it comes out of the area again to search further-in some cases, this can happen even if the handler don't see the dog. So it must do it without the help and without stressing, as it begins to bark and hundeføreren takes it as an error marking.
Blind search:
* Agile, the last two have been held respectively in Switzerland and Austria-with round ring in the Alps. That is to say the dog comes out to run on highly demanding and steep areas.
* Drives, it takes place July in France/Croatia/Austria/Switzerland and the dog must search for up to 30 minutes in a row. The dog must find up to 6 decoys without being rewarded by or between the decoys.
Chairman idea why the gsd cannot pass as a working SAR DOG her statement is
The German Shepherd dogs I have seen are primarily of working lines. My immediate bid on why so many of them can't contentment to the Wm are:
1) they are too heavy and not physically strong enough. In some cases, they simply don't come around no matter how hard they are fighting for the case.
2) Sliding down and settles a bit, or are experiencing an uncomfortable mattress, also stresses the too easy.
3) they are to dependent on the distance of the handler, some find it very difficult to work without being able to see the handler.
4) They do not have drive enough to be able to work up to 40 minutes in the heat that is in the countries mentioned in July. So they start out fine, but cannot keep drive in the course of the test.
-It is so my bids on why the german shepherds not doing better ... now I know not how German Shepherd-breeders have the with rescue dog, but in any case at malinois, there is certainly no problems WHATSOEVER mht. to buy a good puppy from a good breeder, if only they say it must be used to rescue dog: o).
Of course I get another puppy in a litter than the f example Martine would have ... but what I see now is not as if the breeder will not bother to sell to me, but more a sensible coverage mht. getting the right puppy sent out to the appropriate program; o).
So without being able to say what I believe, certainly not to the results is due to the breeders of utility German Shepherd will not bother to sell to rescue dog. In many countries used rescue dogs up to 4-5 times a month to search for missing persons, and in many countries is the rescue hundeførerne Professional on an equal footing with e.g. Police Service hundeførere (e.g. firefighters in France and other countries) ... In some countries it is the military's professional dog masters who educates rescue dogs (e.g. the one organization in Switzerland) and other places such as. Russia is the police who educates rescue dogs.
|
by myret on 09 February 2012 - 14:09 |
| Vomeisenhaus I dont know what we Will aclomplish with the pup but hé we have already won the title Best working dog at a competition with Both other much older pups and aldult dogs With a Strange handler to see If the dog could focus ón working obedience and stay driven instead of looking after his handler So Im proud |
by vomeisenhaus on 09 February 2012 - 18:53 |
| Best working dog at a competition??? What kind of competition was this? Sounds like something you would see at petsmart. |
by myret on 09 February 2012 - 19:09 |
| eisenhaus It was in the in police canine traning facility nothing for real mostly a fun competition but still enough to give the dogs points for their obedience  |
by johan77 on 09 February 2012 - 19:35 |
| Myret, yes as we told you, SCH-lines could be find in many sports and jobs, especially with ferro in the pedigree;) There aren´t much difference in the dogs you posted compared to gator and many others, but of course a few dogs have a couragtest and attacks that are hard to match, regardless of the breed or sport, if you take the GSDs that do french ring or KNPV for the moment probably very few of them could match zenders protectionwork if they did SCH instead. Also, you don´t see everything in a trial, especially not things that are important for a servicedog, endurance, good nerves and ability to concentrate in difficult tracks and environment, courage and so on. So if the dogs should do more than sports you can´t only look to what sporttitles the dog has, and say this dog is better than another, it´s depends on the purpose of the work he should do. Czech GSDs seems not a good choice for you, they have SCH-like sports or servicework in their pedigree;) you probably find more dogs wih extreme preydrive in some of the other lines. If you want a GSD that are multipurpose and can do SAR, look for lines tested for this then, like the danish PH-dogs or swedish lines, there you find dogs which are tested for this and not only SCH-dogs. Rottweiler or other breeds are also doing SAR so GSDs with the right attributes could do this, if they can´t do SAR in hotterclimat or ringsport as good as some 25 kg malinois so who cares, you don´t need such a dog anyway in denmark, do you? As I said, I want a dog that are not only suited for a specific task. |
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