Sport/working Enthusiasts > Schutzhund and only schutzhund? (142 replies)
by myret on 05 February 2012 - 17:13
|For mé I like Koos from the tiekerhook kennels love his High drive dogs genetics thats the Way to go Or France because I see a litle of the gsd old time In these Lines|
by myret on 05 February 2012 - 19:55
you always talks about mals and their love for chasing and biting, like that´s the only things a good dog is made of, what about nerves, hardness, courage and so on ? I understand you don´t care about if a dog could do policework and not only sport, for me I rather see a dog that could do more than sport, and not only be a decent ringdog but not fitted for servicework.
have you read somewhere that I dont care if dogs can do police work ???? I have not wrote that at any time
I wrote I could care less for the links here with pics of dogs who are police dogs
police dogs are very different i over all because the different countrys have different sayings about what and how a dog can become a policedogs and what it requires of the dogs is different from ect the States to Skandinavia
USA use dogs that are what I think more drivey because they use the biting much more than in Scandinavia we mostly use police dogs at searching buildings or tracking many danish police dogs never bite enyone in there intire life almost no police k9 are used to catch criminals like in other eu countrys and the states to you cant compare a danish police k9 to a police dog in the states or anywhere else
so ofcourse I think its important that a dog could do policework but the Danish police dogs its not important how he bites or if he is good at it they mostly use there dogs for nosework and a litle of their training is bite work
many of them have not full bites but a weak bite.
I love service work but a schh dog has nothing to do with real life I would give you my cake that a RING titled dog could certainly better be used for police work than the other way around
nerves, hardness,courage is just as important to me than anyone else that is what I've been writing al the time many of the schh dogs of today are softer, not as hard,lacks courage, cant handle a hard correction without loosing drive, that is what you see more and more not like the earliere lines , Im not just talking preydrive it al come down to that schh does not test these things very much its tests more if you can train a dog to do all these exersices correctly.
the reason for using the mals is that its the dog that has taken the gsd ranking number 1 working drive and everyone knows this dog as a very drivey dog
by mfh27 on 05 February 2012 - 22:04
|Myret, your thinking is wrong when you throw dogs that can barely get a SchH title and those that get SchH titles because that is the training venue the handler chooses to work on into the same description based solely on the title. The title can not describe the dog; it only says the dog went through training to get those titles.|
At least in America, it is very hard to get a SchH1 on a good dog because schutzhund clubs are few and far between. Ring clubs are even rarer. I have yet to see here a bad dog get a SchH1. I'm sure it happens; but most I have found do not have the ability or time to get a bad dog trained to SchH1.
The police dogs I linked, especially Griff, Chico, and Liam (Boomer) are in America and are well known for their apprehension/courage/fight ability. And they also have SchH titles. I didnt realize you were not in America, so you dont automatically know these dogs and their credentials. But now you do.
by johan77 on 05 February 2012 - 23:36
|Myret, you said a ring 3 dog is a very good dog, if you know agree that it´s not about different sports but instead genetics and goal that matter we can agree on that, it´s what I´ve been saying all the time. You said you don´t care about policedos, don´t knowt what you mean by that. Fact is GSDs(and mals) are used as PSDs both in scandinavia and US, from same lines and often bought from europe and also denmark. Yes, in scandinavia most PSDs are doing much nosework, but biting is also a part. I would guess not all US policedogs are biting every week and nosework is not important, considering US is so large and no uniform standards in selection and certification for the whole US I can only guess their policedogs vary much more in quality than in scandinavia where all dogs go thru similar selection and certification in each country, the skill of the breeders and handlers are also probably better in scandinavia where breeding and dogsports have longer traditions.|
Koos also uses high scoring SCH-dogs by the way.
by Chaz Reinhold on 06 February 2012 - 00:22
|So does Myret's breeder. I believe her pup is linebred on Half.|
by workingdogz on 06 February 2012 - 00:30
|In regards to the video of the puppies,|
as I stated before, I have seen many WL
litter show the same-bite crazy fools,
I have also seen many SL litters do the same.
The difference in them all is,
let's see who "has it" at 12 mos, 24mos, 36mos etc.
Christ, we helped an employee's friend select
a Springer Spaniel puppy recently,
THAT litter of puppies chased, bit and hung on too!
In the USA, Canada as well really, our working dog
events/activities are fairly limited when it comes to
Ring, French and/or Mondio is too small,
and the same thing has happened time and
time again in ring clubs, the infighting and politics
wear people down and they quit. We did Brevet's
on our 'schutzhund' dogs many many years ago,
I think that was back when there was only NARA,
then came 'the split'. One of the things we didn't
like about ring was the lack of control/precision.
This is the main reason Schutzhund is for us.
We have went out and dabbled in PSA,
again, not for us. Too much infighting,
little organization, lack of control on dogs,
and no local/regional/international
recognition of working titles.
I won't bother going into all the other assorted
K9 bite sport associations we joined and played in.
Most were dead end,
and usually turned into a scam of some sort.
Is schutzhund perfect? NO
But, it is a great place to start looking at a dog.
It is an internationally accepted system of
titling a dog that we can all do research from.
Again, for those that say it's lame, not a good
starting point etc, go walk on to the field and win
the Nationals and the Worlds then-should be easy!
At least if you are going to criticize a sport, have
some actual experience in it. Not just 'oh, I trained in
it for __ years'. Maybe your dog isn't 'all that' if you
have trained in it for __ years and never got anywhere.
Once you start to break down each exercise
and realize what it will tell you about a dog,
you can possibly have a better appreciation for it.
I'm not talking about "points dogs" I'm referring
to going to a club trial and watching those dogs.
Go to training sessions, see where the dog excels
and where it struggles, watch the handling as well.
Oh, for myret, you do know that many years back
a WG showline dog made KNPV PH1 right?
If memory serves me right, the dog was also titled
in the Objectbewakingshond.
Good dogs will always be where you find them, but
a good place to start looking is a working dog club.
by myret on 06 February 2012 - 14:50
|Mfh27 We title dogs here In Denmark very fast many have their schh 3 within the dog is 2-3 years old many have already trained their dog to a title 3 before they cant take the title and Thère are alot of schh training facilitets here|
by myret on 06 February 2012 - 14:51
|Yes hé is linebreed ón Half|
by vomeisenhaus on 06 February 2012 - 15:02
|Fwiw I understand what myret is trying to say. Without a doubt it takes a very good dog to get to ring 3. I think a good example of what she is trying to say would be to look at the protection work at the bszs. Most are schh3 but could probably never get a ring3 title. But on the same note myret..... until there is a sport that allows you to crack a dog in the head with a whiskey bottle when he comes at you and kick him in the ribs with a pasir of steel toe boots...... its still a sport. I guarantee you there are many ring3 dogs that will quickly lose drive in that scenario. Just a little food for thought. Kurt|
by vomeisenhaus on 06 February 2012 - 15:22
|Also just because a dog is a high point dog in schutzhund in no way means he is not a hard high drive dog. For instance take gary hanrahans bastin vom kokeltal. VERY VERY STRONG DOG. And I also had the pleasure of being in a club with one of his sons anteras zu treuen handen. And I can assure you the only way you are going to stop him is to kill or maim him. Especiall here in the states there a very few people and clubs with the knowledge and skill to take these dogs to that level but it can be done :)|
by workingdogz on 06 February 2012 - 15:34
"until there is a sport that allows you to crack a dog in the head with a whiskey bottle when he comes at you and kick him in the ribs with a pasir of steel toe boots...... its still a sport. I guarantee you there are many ring3 dogs that will quickly lose drive in that scenario. Just a little food for thought. Kurt"
LMAO Kurt, great anology!
And yes, no one will get anywhere
by playing "my sport is better than yours".
And yes, it takes a very skilled and capable
handler to get a dog with loads of natural
aggression etc to a high level of competition.
Bastin is a perfect example. He was not a dog
for a novice by any stretch, and no joke either,
but he could maintain control and power to
make top points.
By the way, congrats to you on breeding
Alex, what a super nice dog!
by vomeisenhaus on 06 February 2012 - 17:21
|Workingdogz....... hahaaaa. You like that did ya. I've was fortunate to have gotten into this sport by a mutual friend of ours tom trainor. I seen on another thread where you mentioned his name. I met him in the mid 90's when he was in florida. We both know what kind of dog he keeps. He actually pointed me in the dection of breeding to alex's dad troll v h milinda. And I thank pj for all his hard work and dedication. Yeah sport is sport no matter how you look at it. I liked ur comment of "Yeah it takes.a lot of expertise to put a less than 2yr old female under a male with no titles or health checks". Lmao. This place never ceases to amaze me. I like the ones where people who have never traine & titled a dog but yet are so knowledgable and quick to give their "expert advice". Or the ones who don't train & title who buy a schh1 female and pump out litters from her every year and "ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY" :) god I love this place. Lmao. Kurt|
by workingdogz on 06 February 2012 - 18:00
|Kurt, I owe you a couple beer |
Pedro and Alex made a fantastic
team together, what was more
impressive was the dogs temperment
off the field, around the home!
Tom did have some tough ones for sure!
I was sent this quote through a
working dog friend awhile back,
it comes off Scott Claybough's site,
and the words are very poignant.
I am betting you will agree Kurt!
I hope Scott won't mind me sharing this:
taken from his site at http://vomvastklippa.com
"I only breed Working Line German Shepherd dogs that are working-titled, healthy dogs with hip & elbow ratings. Dogs that have proven their genetic strength and ability to work under stress in training, on the trial field, or on the street. I do not just use the scorebook as a determining factor as to the dog’s worthiness to reproduce. I produce a litter only when we believe that the breeding will produce the dog’s inherited natural working drives, hardness, and temperament to compete in Sport as a K9 Partner, or as a lifelong guardian and member of your family.
Below you will find two quotes by Gunther Diegel, Director of Schutzhund Judges for the Verein für Deutsche Schaferhund (SV) in Germany.
The first quote is Mr. Diegel’s comments on working a genetically weak dog. The second quote is a reminder of what Schutzhund should be. I have added both of these quotes because of my complete agreement with both statements.
When this dog finds himself under stress, as all dogs do at times, he reaches back to his ancestry to get help or relief from the stress. But, as you can see, when this dog reaches back for help from his ancestors...there is nobody there."
The reminder here is that the origin of Schutzhund and the rules under which we "compete" were developed to "test" the dog’s temperament (courage and hardness NOT "play prey" or "ball" drive) for breed suitability - not for a sport. We cannot lose sight of the fact that Schutzhund is a BREED SUITABILITY test or we do a disservice to the German Shepherd dog. Conscientious breeders should train and test their bloodlines...not simple be in the "puppy business".
by myret on 06 February 2012 - 19:13
I do know thats it all is about genetics not sport BUT sport can help select the traits needed for work
the training methods has changed alot becuase people have learned to use positive ways to train dogs instead of the old hard methods we used back in the 80's and 90's becuase of the gsd has become more soft and easier to train it has lost something else like the power to maintain drive for longer time, overall drive, and the nervs to keep drive when corrected or not be rewarded all the time , many gsd today would not have the hardness og fight to keep drive becuase they are softer than in the older days
many people in France that train RING or those who train KNPV still train by those old methods and the dogs has to maintain drive to keep up the harsh training methods they still use
by myret on 06 February 2012 - 19:21
|I like the way Koos thinks|
he is good to spot the gentic dogs and not the ones that is made by a good handler his passion for the gsd and he has had very much succes
he is all about the genetics not points only
by vomeisenhaus on 06 February 2012 - 22:16
|Myret.... I am going to be quite frank with you. I can tell by your posts you really aren't very experienced and for your sake I hope you do not get a dog such as max van tiekerhhok as you will only end up in the hospital. I doubt very highly you have the knowledge and skill to handle a dog like that. Its almost always the inexperinced person talking of hard tough dogs when in fact if they got one they will probably find themselves locked in a bathroom hopefully with a cell phone to the tune of "911 what's your emergency". Internet talk is cheap myret... and trust me when I say this. "Old school trainin" is alive and well on my field and if I can find dogs in schutzhund with the type of drive and hardness quite easily clear over here in the states if you know where to go makes me wonder how far away from your computer you went to actually go test and look at dogs? What kennels have you actually visited? Once again. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but it is what it is and I'm saying it like it is. Kurt|
by workingdogz on 07 February 2012 - 00:30
Please keep in mind, the original thought
behind my post was that some of the
"pop up breeders" seem to think that
people at schutzhund clubs only ever do
schutzhund routines. There are plenty of
people out there all over the world
that don't ascribe to all the toys/gadgets
etc that were developed to help weaker dogs
get trained/titled. There is plenty of "old school"
training still going on all around, but the
noobies/pop-up breeders have to realize
that most clubs are not going to do that
in front of them. Some people don't understand
things like muzzle work, civil work etc. So while
it is still done in most clubs, it's just not
something that is advertised per se.
by myret on 07 February 2012 - 10:18
|Vomeizenhaus I dont want a dog with much social aggression or alot of defense drive If you Think that I am much more fond of prey dogs that works and Think prey not a handler aggressive dog so I dont Think I Will ever own that type of dog I like the prey dogs more because they are easy to work with|
by myret on 07 February 2012 - 11:00
|Vomeisenhauz I Think you are missing the point I am not looking for a handler aggressive dog , a hard dog that Can handle corrections Does not need to be aggressive towards the handler, but still maintain drive so Im not looking for a Max Vom Tiekeehook dog I like the type of dog like Lübeck vom der mahlermeister hé is a Nice dog very High drive but not handler aggressive but still hard so hé Can keep drive even If corrected Yes I have seen or visited several kennels here did not like the dogs lack of drive most of Them I have seen more prey drive In a poodle|
by myret on 07 February 2012 - 11:02
|I want stabil nerves and the prey drive like a mal Not only Ball drive but prey drive|