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ForumsMain > Doing as much research as possible before getting my next GSD (36 replies)
Doing as much research as possible before getting my next GSD by shepherdhope on 07 January 2012 - 11:34 |
| First time on a forum so bare with me please, I lost my (show Line) shepherd nearly three years ago and now feel ready to start looking for my future dog. Keira had nearly every health problem a shepherd could have a some point in her life. Lost her to DM and she suffered from AF for the last five years of life, horrific conditions. I do not want another dog to endure these problems. I am looking at the working lines for my next dog. I know from what I've learnt upto now their health is great but does anyone know if they do suffer from these horrific conditions? Any info would be fantastic. Thanks Shepherdhope. |
by GSDguy08 on 07 January 2012 - 12:14 |
| What is AF? A lot of breeders are starting to do blood test to see if the dogs either have DM or carry it in their genes.....So you can find puppies from dogs who are DM clear. |
GSDguy08 by Rogerpodger on 07 January 2012 - 12:54 |
| The point of working lines is that only the fittest and healthiest dogs are allowed to breed and only the fittest and healthiest pups are kept for working and or future breeding. Thus these dogs may not have identical looks or appearances as they are bred for function not show. Show dogs on the other hand are really bred for a certain look, shape, height, color and so on. Thus inbred health and personality problems are far more frequent in this type of dog. Buy a dog from a working line don't be impressed by KC papers and shit like that. Take someone who knows dogs with you to look the pups, dam and if you can the sire as well. |
by shepherdhope on 07 January 2012 - 13:49 |
| AF is anal furunculosis. Basically it looks like the tissue is melting around the anus. I know both conditions to be hereditary and test are now available. However the breeders seem few and far between who are testing for these conditions. DM does seem to have a few more on board. I am not getting a pup soon it's probably going to be in a year or so. Doing all the ground work first so when the time comes I make the right choice, hopefully. Thanks loads |
by jdiaz1791 on 07 January 2012 - 14:27 | |
"
All you care about working lines is DRIVE, so you can fill your mouth saying showlines can't work or can't bite...THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE AND YOU WILL EVER HAVE, is it just envy that a VA can command 350,000 Euros , while maybe the top working line can't even fetch 20,000 Euros ????? SHEPHERDHOPE,more than likely, if you buy a quality showline, you will not have any problems. I do LIFETIME guarantee on my pups,tell me which working line breeder does that ????? MAYBE you are part of the problem ROGERPODGER www.workingdogsuk.co.uk/ , the dogs you breed are untitled, not proven, from "suspects lines" , YET, you are criticizing ALL the showlines people , INSTEAD of directing it to the showline breeders or working line breeders like you that breed the untitled, unproven ,bad quality dogs...... FOR TOOOO long, WHEN SOMETIMES I COME TO THIS SITE I FIND PEOPLE TAKING SHOT AT ALLLLL SHOWLINES, WITHOUT FACTS, BEING BIASED...I WILL NOT TAKE IT ANYMORE,SO IF YOU ARE GOING TO CRITICIZE MY DOGS, YOU BETTER BE READY TO PROVE ME WRONG !!!!!!! | |
jdiaz1791 by Slamdunc on 07 January 2012 - 15:17 |
| Top working line dogs have sold for much more than 20,000 Euros. There is good and bad in everything. I know some Sl breeders that do an excellent job and breed excellent dogs that work pretty well. I know some WL breeders that breed dogs with excellent conformation that work really well. ShepehrdHope, Do your research, check out some clubs go to some trials and see what dogs catch your eye. Be clear in what you want and what you are going to do with your dog. I had SL dogs and love the looks of SL dogs. I have raised, titled and shown my dogs. However, I looked at what I enjoyed most and that was working dogs. I realized I did SchH every week and enjoyed that more than running in a circle with my dog. I looked at the SL vs WL dogs, objectively from a performance stand point and decided to go with working lines for my future dogs. Personally, since I did SchH every week I wanted a dog that was impressive on the working field and would sacrifice in the show ring to get that. If I just wanted a pet either line will do, just select your breeder and pup carefully. Good luck, Jim |
Slamdunc by charity on 07 January 2012 - 15:45 |
| That was a nice post Slam. |
by Nans gsd on 07 January 2012 - 16:11 |
| Well now that you have been through the health gamat of problems the breed endures; first and foremost I would look for health clearances; go to breeders that can show you health check references on the sire and dam and the puppies. HD/ED, cardio, thyroid, EYES are very important, DM and others if you can get them. There are many people on this forum that do all these health clearances and sire and dam are clear before they are bred. THAT is very important for your future puppy. A type of process of elimination if you will. I would not restrict yourself to WL/SL/ or color; check out all your possibilities and if at all possible; go see your puppy pick, hold and play with him/her and try to see the parents and grandparents if possible. Find out about the lineage longevity, hip scores whether thru OFA or SV; excellent or borderlines? If you can answer some of these questions it might help to get you where you want to go. Whatever you do, best of luck and I will also probably be looking for a puppy about the same time. Good luck Nan |
by jdiaz1791 on 07 January 2012 - 16:18 |
| SLAMDUNC, you wrote the same I did, " there are bad breeders of both out there, AND there are bad WL and SL being bred out there"....whatever you like is your choice, of course....and you do the right thing by telling the SHEPHERDHOPE to do due diligence. but then, you say " I want more to go around circles"...is this all the showlines do?? do you think this is a FACT ?....why can you guys be unbiased ? when I said sl sell for 350,000 euros is an average,some showlines have sold for double that....yes,maybe there had been 1 or 2 wl that sold for 20,000 euros, which one ? ...FACTS..... this year in the BSZS, THE TOP 14 IN BITEWORK, ABOUT 8 out of the 14 where SHOW LINES..... THE 2011 UNIVERSAL SIEGER IS A SHOWLINE.....YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU ALL THE YEARS A SHOWLINE HAVE WON ?...YOU DO KNOW UNIVERSAL IS WORKING AND SHOW COMBINED when a new person comes in the board,tell them the right thing,research, look at shows,trials, talk to families with both wl and sl...be responsible, not just feel your ego....how in good conscience you can say " more than running in a circle " meaning that is all what showlines are about do you like it if I say all working lines can do is destroy a house, since the best have crazy,impossible drives that can only be handle by experience people..that Working lines will jump on you non stop and bite you out of control...that working lines are dangerous for kids because of this? BE RESPONSIBLE,SAY IT THE WAY IT IS, NOT THE WAY YOU LIKE OR THE WAY YOU THINK IT IS...THERE IS GOOD AND BAD IN EVERYTHING is...is this a nice post CHARITY ?? if not, I erase it |
by jdiaz1791 on 07 January 2012 - 16:30 |
| So would you ROGERPODGER... Mind telling us why you breed untitled,unproven dogs, and then attack the showline dog,breeders that do the same you do ? |
by Red Sable on 07 January 2012 - 17:39 |
| jdiaz, you are taking peoples preferences waaay to personally. It is true that many showline breeders focus on colour and the trot, resulting in red dogs with weak ears, backends and temperament. I don't know about HD so can not comment on that. It is also true that many workingline breeders are so focused on drives that they forget about hips, health or whatever and have created high energy dogs that can be hard to live with. I'm sure I'm missing other things. It is also true that many many of each line are way overpriced for the quality of dog you get. All you can do as a breeder is be honest and fair to your buyers, breed only dogs that fit as closely to the breed standard as you can, as healthy as you can, and see your dogs with as much of an impartial eye as possible. |
Red Sable by Red Sable on 07 January 2012 - 17:44 |
| To the OP, there are a few recent threads on here that either serve as a good example of a breeder or a horrible warning. Check out the threads with over 3 -4 pages and many of your questions will be answered. All of us want a well bred dog so you are not in this alone. :) All the best! |
by Rogerpodger on 07 January 2012 - 17:45 |
If you had looked at our site and read it properly you would see we talk more about HEALTH and we never mention 'biting'. We also have information about the BLOODLINES of our dogs. As a PhD in Veterinary Expertise, with also a MSc in Agriculture and BSc in Biology and Environmental Sciences and years of experience with GSD's and other dogs I am well aware of research and 'facts'. I also know about good and poor stock.For example, in the UK the police are finding it increasingly difficult to locate 'good' GSD's due to poor breeding.This is often due to breeders attempting to breed a certain look. As a Biologist I can tell you this is most frequently due to cloning. Cloning leads to a a reduced gene pool and can lead to a population bottleneck. The lack of genetic diversity means the population (e.g. dogs) are susceptible to GENETIC HEALTH PROBLEMS. In working dogs lines you look for DIVERSITY as much as anything else and in some cases hybridization is allowed to bring on certain positive characteristics in future progeny. After all, the GSD is historically a mix of other dogs that have demonstrated positive traits, by breeding for singular specifics, you weaken the gene pool and lay the dog and their progeny open to a stochastic event. When looking for a puppy one of the main issues is to find an informed, considerate breeder rather than a scally (or puppy farm) that simply sells dogs for as much money as they can get. Shepherd Hope - hope all this helps you find the dog you are looking for!;) |
by Slamdunc on 07 January 2012 - 18:15 |
Jdiaz,
|
by Rogerpodger on 07 January 2012 - 18:31 |
JOSE DIAZ - CHECKED OUT YOUR WEBSITE SO YOU SHIP FROZEN AND CHILLED SEMEN! AT A PRICE (MONETARY AND ETHICAL??) CAREFUL AND CONSIDERATE BREEDING? SOUNDS MORE LIKE INDUSTRIAL SCALES AND EVERYTHING I WOULD STAND AGAINST IN AGRICULTURE. I THINK VERY SAD TO SEE IN THE DOG WORLD. |
by mrdarcy on 07 January 2012 - 18:38 |
| Now that both of you have had your say maybe we could get back to helping the OP with her questions? Any further back and forth PA's will be deleted. Thank you. mrdarcy. |
mrdarcy by jdiaz1791 on 07 January 2012 - 19:11 |
All I am saying, don't talk about SHOWLINES, when you do, you talk about me and all the hard working breeders. If someone needs direction, you tell them about ZW, about proper testing, about proven titled dogs ...NOTHING ELSE....If you say anything else is irresponsible Buying quality dogs , titled and proven dogs is hit or miss and very expensive, and the years trying to buy and import new stock isn't easy either. A buyer doesn't need PHD or BSc or MSc or whatever...JUST BE RESPONSIBLE , if you want quality dogs, they have to be proven,titled...... and taking shots at a dog or type in a breed of dogs doesn't help the OP..you can find me at any show, if you need to talk to me ROGERPODGER or PM me Shipping semen of SCH3,KKL1 DOGS , ESPECIALLY SG4-V8,V14 IN BSZS AND VA1 IN NASS IS UNETHICAL ??.. |
by Slamdunc on 07 January 2012 - 20:22 |
I don't see an issue with AI and a breeding that is done with frozen semen. The SV might, but I certainly don't. It is one way to get a breeding of dogs that may be geographically impossible or to preserve bloodlines that would other wise be lost. My dog is a perfect example of this. I know of a breeding being done next year utilizing frozen semen and I want a pup from that litter.
Jim |
by Rogerpodger on 07 January 2012 - 20:51 |
| Show lines are ok for what they do. SHOW. If you can make a living out of this fine. the problem with this is that it means that some people want a white shepherd ,with blue eyes and don't give a shit if the dog is healthy and contented. When they get bored they get rid. In the working world we respect and like dogs whether they are PPDs, SWDs , Search and rescue, Sniffer, or Guide dogs. We don't focus on bite. We treat our dogs with due respect. We don't see them as $$$$$$$ We don't need to test for endless inherited diseases because we don't allow unfit dogs to breed no matter how good they look. We want the right dog to go to the right home. Dogs do not have to be titled, if you understood genetics you would know that even the best title can produce a runt . Testing of dogs should be necessary unless you know or suspect a a bad trait. People and Animals are not born unhealthy unless its genetic . We acquire illness and disease due to environment and lifestyle / life choices. The sale of semen to me sounds like Industrial farming, its not good.This simply puts the dog on the level of a commodity to be bought, sold and discarded. Finally I am not a hot shot businessman like your self but I am highly educated with a passion for dogs and their wellbeing. No doubt you will die rich and me poor. |
by beetree on 07 January 2012 - 21:05 |
| I can't believe Roger is as educated as he says he is! He makes unbelievably uneducated statements that are his biased opinions. I sure hope the OP can see that. I think Slamdunc said it very well, the differences. The truth is both lines have health issues, and it is the breeders' practice that you need to examine with a fine tooth comb, no matter if SL or WL. |
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