Conformation Showing > The virtues and weakness of present show lines. (67 replies)
by Abby Normal on 21 October 2011 - 08:40
|Ibrahim, as ever I agree with everything that you posted. Fullers statement about the cost of uniformity in type sums up where the SL is today.|
Bomber - what a dog. I think that would be too much of a leap for the SV, though I do think they are attempting to consider bloodlines to widen the genes in the VA's. However, the 'uniformity' in type which has been cast in stone now, along with the politics which drive it, is still going to limit potential future diversity IMO.
TYPE and only type is the reason where we stand this day - never a truer word was spoken IMO. The big question is, how do we change this path while we still have time to regain what has been lost in pursuit of type? I mourn the loss of variety of type that existed back in the 60's, but all still within the standard. At that time there was the opportunity (which was taken at times by the SV) to select a slightly different type to promote to VA, to steer the breed and keep it on track, and correct/adjust body type/working traits where necessary. That option is no longer available, except by outcrossing. Shri, this has been postulated many times, but I don't believe that the SV have the will or the courage to take that step. The last person in the SV that lobbied for that was sent packing.
Blitzen, thanks I too will look out that site and have a good read.
by Gustav on 21 October 2011 - 16:03
|Ibrahim, Thanks for carrying the ball....a very nice discussion|
by Ibrahim on 21 October 2011 - 20:25
I can assure you that your posts and those which share your vision to a good extent like Abby's, djc's .... did not go in vain, and they're making difference at least to us the newbie's who are not prejudice, I only wish that I see more posts from you whenever you have the time and the mood.
by Gustav on 22 October 2011 - 13:20
|Thanks Ibrahim, I still read most of the posts, but sometimes you have to sit back and realize that if your comments are polarizing,(even if grounded in truth), they may well be counterproductive for the greater good. Also, after a period, people's view of your position becomes distorted as their feelings of your statements color their thoughts. I take great satisfaction in seeing people like yourself and others take a balanced and critical look at the breed. Discussions like this are evolving towards where I have been for many many years, but you and others are more patient and thus more effective than I am. I salute you and am content to sit on the sidelines with conformation dogs and see what the future brings. I salute you for your knowledge and your willingness to critically examine things with the hopes of improving them.|
by Xeph on 23 October 2011 - 02:54
|I do not have European dogs (just so people understand where I'm coming from), but the issues in the lines I currently own and love are:|
Lack of nerve
Lack of strong character
Lack of courage/hardness
Weak breed type (have seen MUCH improvement in this in the past coupld of years)
Dogs that are too close coated (not the same as not having profuse coat)
Variety of type
Movement has been cleaned up
Still a good family dog (you need to watch your breeders, regardless of lines)
All colors still readily available
Many of the drives needed to have a good sport dog (agility, obedience, rally, etc) ARE still within these lines....they just need to be brought out of the dog
by autobahn on 24 October 2011 - 04:57
|Xeph, I can only guess that you have AM or CDN showlines? In any case, seeing the majority of these dogs are a horrible example of what a Shepherd should be. Temperament is something that NEEDS to be corrected. They are scared of things unnecessarily, shy away from new people and are just not, IMO, good family dogs. Obviously there are exceptions, but this is what I have seen in recent years.|
by Xeph on 24 October 2011 - 13:57
|I have American show lines, and refuse to own dogs that cannot be safe and social with people. I do not like unsound animals.|
I do not disagree that temperament needs work. I do disagree that they are not good family dogs in general. I will say it is harder to find homes for some than others.
I have seen improvements...there was even a dog at the American national that was excused this year for improper temperament...3 were excused the year before...judges ARE doing something about it. Now the breeders have to start following suit :-/
I know what I will and will not breed. There is a reason why, after so many years, that I still have not had a litter, much as I want one. I won't breed dogs sketchy temperaments or poor health.
A big problem is that aside from breeder's ignoring the standard, judges DO make it worse, by not following what's written in the AKC standard. Dogs that exhibit poor character are to be excused from the ring. It's right in there...and the judges don't do it.
by SitasMom on 03 November 2011 - 00:47
|Dingo the ultimate troting machine - had steep upper arms......Bomber has short pasterns that slope way too much....Every dog has its faults.....and its strengths.|
What I find very interesting is that a breeder must decide if he wants to breed for males or for females.......its almost like its 2 different breeds.....
by pod on 04 November 2011 - 15:54
|Dingo had less exaggerated angulation, front and rear, than winning show dogs of today but this just illustates how faulty the standard is in asking for 90 degrees in the forehand, and how counter productive inceased rear angulation is. The further exaggeration in angles that has crept in has not improved gait at all, rather the opposite and this is evident in the high stepping forelegs and sickle hocks so common in the ring now.|
by Gustav on 05 November 2011 - 12:40
|@POD.....ya think!!!!!! good observation!!|
by jc.carroll on 05 November 2011 - 13:55
You don't need to breed for males or for females. Even in the same litter, I have started seeing a huge variance in size and structure between the male pups and the female pups. Sexual dimorphism is a trait that can be selected for. While it occurs naturally in mammals that the male is most typically the larger of the two, it can go to extremes, like in the California sea lion, where males can range between 400 - 2000lbs, but females only at 100 - 600lbs. Some breeders have a propensity for throwing masculine males in the same litter that throws feminine females.
I have been watching that with great fascination. I don't think the breeders are deliberately selecting sexual dimorphism as one of the traits they're shooting for; I think in a few cases it's just cropped up on it's own, and the breeders who work with closer linebreedings within their own lines stand a better chance of this trait becoming magnified. I can't help but wonder... If left unchecked, could you wind up with lines of GSD that produce very different type based solely on genetics of gender.
by shri on 05 November 2011 - 18:56
|I am happy this discussion is becoming more informative.Let us discuss the virtues of certain lines as transmitters of good Hips,Firm straight backs,good ear carriage,good temperaments and drives etc .Thank you all please continue this discussion.|
by GSDNewbie on 06 November 2011 - 00:38
|The virtue I like right now is after several tries I finally have a dog sound in body and mind who also has a correct structure... three times the charm? lol The whole litter are all excellent as they mature.|
by Abby Normal on 06 November 2011 - 14:56
|So, here's a question...were Dingo's 'steep' upper arms more functional (and therefore more anatomically correct) than what the standard technically (and incorectly) calls for? Bearing in mind that it is believed from both pressure plate tests and research undertaken by the SV that more forward thrust is generated from the forehand (60%), and Dingo was, after all, the ultimate trotting machine. With his unexaggerated hind angulation he also demonstrated correct movement in front, wasting no energy on the high stepping gait that Pod mentions, which is the product of excessive hind angulation.|
by shri on 06 November 2011 - 18:22
|I think the answer for Dingo's fantastic movement lies in the length of upper arm and the very good placement of shoulder blades with correct balance of front and hind angulation.My personal opinion though difference of opinion will be appreciated.I guess there are many experts here on database to give their views.Regards.|
by pod on 07 November 2011 - 09:19
|Abby, where can I read more on the SV research and pressure plate tests? I know nothing about those.|
by Ibrahim on 07 November 2011 - 19:54
I would also love to see that study about the thrust.
I was always under the impression that Dingo's front upper arm is steep but it is not. The standard was tailored for Dingo, his only off standard was his croup which is short and steep, otherwise as per the standard he is more perfect than all the 2011 top 10, see below:
by Ibrahim on 07 November 2011 - 20:00
|If ADMINISTRATION does not object I can do the angles of Ober von Bad boll for comparison.|
by Ibrahim on 07 November 2011 - 20:14
|Mr. Louis Donald in (A Discussion Paper on the Structure
of the German Shepherd Dog) explains the correct way to measure shoulder angles:
Showing the various ways
the length and angle of the
shoulder blade and upper
arm can be determined
The dotted line represents
how most judges assess the
shoulder blade and upper
arm whilst the solid line
represents how it should be
The general response you would get from most people when
asked how they actually determine by sight or feel the angle
of the shoulder blade would be for them to say it’s the line
that runs through the centre of the scapula, solid line A C, but
contrary to what they may think, this is not what they are
actually determining the angle from!
What they are working on isn’t a line through the centre of
the scapula but a line that starts in the centre of the scapula
at it’s top, at the withers, but at the bottom where it joins the
upperarm they have moved away from the scapula’s centre
line, its spine and they are now on a line that has been set by
the outer point of the humerus dotted line A B. This is the
point they actually see and or touch. This gives the illusion of
more lay back of the shoulder blade than actually exists and is
part of the problem when people both assess and talk about
length and angles of bones in general.
Dr Gorrieri did believe that the shoulder blade should
approximate 45 degrees but he did not accept the traditional
view that is still generally expounded that the shoulder blade
and the upperarm should both be 45 degrees to the horizontal
and equal in length. If you assess the shoulder blade and the
upperarm by sight as described earlier then they may appear
to be at 45 degrees and 90 degrees to themselves and equal
in length but if you measure them correctly, as a clinician
would do as can be seen in Figure 19 in the solid lines they
are not equal and the upperarm is not at 45 degrees but 53degrees.
It is necessary for the reader to accept that the
way to measure and calculate degrees in the upperarm is as I
have shown it in the solid line and as such comparison to the
length of the shoulder blade should be done this way too.
by shri on 07 November 2011 - 20:32
|Thank you Mr Ibrahim for the vivid illustrations.This further strengthens my view for the fantastic movement ie the length of upperarm and very nicely placed shoulder blades.As you have shown in the illustration of front angles, the lower part of the fulcrum (the upper arm-humerus)is slightly longer and not equal to the shoulder blade.Thank you for sharing the views.Regards.|