Main > Top Showlines with good protection phase (412 replies)
by Kevin Nance on 10 May 2011 - 19:24
Vandal Vom Mittelwest (2010 UScA German Shepherd Nationals)
Vandal finished tied for the eighth highest obedience routine (92) and only a handler error just prior to the long bite where he was platzed kept him from 2010 UScA Universal Sieger. He has shown V in tracking and obedience and just short in protection for overall SG, but is yet to put together the complete routine in a given day. He has only shown under "legitimate" UScA judges at working line trials where he was multiple times high in trial. Vandal is shown HOT and was the youngest dog present at last year's Nationals (not necessarily a good thing).
Vandal's temperament and drive transition is legitimate at any level of trial although his handling and preparation will benefit from greater experience. His grips are full, hard, and stable; his re-grips, when necessary, are the same. His outs are very fast with excellent, transition to strong guarding. He is "nerve forward" through defense in any environment (and he has seen many) which unfortunately is currently lending itself to a bit slow into the helper though not with the typical show line picture. Lastly, he is a two time performance award recipient at the UScA Sieger Show where he recently placed V9.
He will not see the podium at a National level event but is capable of performing within the mix of next tier competitors (high G to SG).
The Universal Sieger concept both at the National (upcoming) and International level is where we hope to excel; time, preparation, and some luck will tell....
Shameless plug I know, but I'm a bit proud of this very unique boy. :)
by Mystere on 10 May 2011 - 22:13
| You have every right to be proud, Kevin!! We are very proud of you and Vandal in the PNW. You put in the work , time and effort to bring out and develope the dog. Karen Sinclair has done the same with her Griff and previously wit Uli--both raised and trained the same as a working-line dog would be. No quarter given--and one asked.|
GOOD LUCK at the Universal Sieger Championship at the end of the month. Looking forward to seeing you at the USCA Nationals in Kansas in the fall!!
by Mystere on 10 May 2011 - 22:29
|QUOTE BY NANCE: "they both accomplished their scores in "legitimate" environments at working line oriented trials under UScA judges and/or very discriminating Canadian judges (Lance Collins/Doug Deacon). Thus, their scores as a reflection of their true ability and breed worthiness are useful."|
This is an important point. Far too many owners of show line dogs have trialed under SV judges known to be major "Santa's Helpers," thus brushing a taint over the titles garnered at such trials.1 Too many have garnered titles at trials that can only be described as Midnight Trials in the California Sun (sounds like a song, huh?). Every single point earned in a trial under Deacon, Mensing, and the vast majority of the USCA judges is truly earned and hard-fought.
Let us not forget that at one time, Tracey Bullinger also trained and trialed her dogs. Brew v Bullinger was a member of the Canadian WUSV Team at least once, if not twice. Brew was so impressive that I was flattered whenever anyone asked if my "half n half" bitch was a Brew daughter. One of his daughters, Lexi v. Bullinger, turned in a near-legendary performance in the performance phase of a SIeger Show, being called "extremely pronounced." Now, we have Vandal. I am looking forward to seeing Kevin and Vandal as part of the WUSV Universal Sieger Team going to Austria.
1 The same can be said for some working-line owners, who had and have those same judges officiate at their club trials early in the year, to get those pesky qualifying scores out of the way.
by Rik on 11 May 2011 - 10:46
|Kevin, Heidi and Mystere, thank you for your comments and insight. Sometimes I think what is lost here is many like myself are novice in performance.|
It is one thing to have an idea of where one wants to go, but not quite sure if you can get there. It is quite another to see and hear from people who have already been there.
by mikekimbo on 11 May 2011 - 12:09
|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV7ExyIGfC8 one more showline ,but can work|
by VKGSDs on 11 May 2011 - 16:34
|One thing that annoys me about threads like this is the either/or mentality, like the dog either "works" or doesn't. It is NEVER so black and white. Probably 80% of working line dogs I would not want to own just because they "work". Just because they "work" does not tell me anything, and the same is true for show lines. When we make it so simple, so black and white, we are just contributing to the reason why their temperaments are so poor. It illustrates that people often have no idea what they are even talking about and actually make breeding decisions based on YouTube videos or these sorry ass "courage tests". Every dog has a different balance of drives, threshold, nerve, hardness, softness, etc. If someone says "this showline works" that means almost nothing to me because it doesn't say anything about anything, really. Hopefully I'm making sense here.|
I personally like training and working a specific combination of character traits and I don't care if that's a working or a show line dog. In fact right now I have a very nice working line puppy but at this point still prefer the work of my show line dog. Maybe .5% of show line dogs are ones I'd like to work and maybe 20% of good working line dogs meet my criteria. It doesn't mean the rest suck or are worthless but they aren't my type of dog. So when we look at 1 of 200 show line dogs doing OK on their "courage test" and ooogle that "this one works", what does that even mean?
I put a LOT of weight into watching the dog train, not just YouTubes of short trial segments or their scorebook. For me to ever seriously consider a dog to buy, breed, or buy a puppy from I have to see the dog in a training scenario, not just doing a routine on an (edited) video. When I buy a puppy I will *always* prefer the breeders that have trained and titled their own dogs, especially when it comes to getting a show line dog.
by Dog1 on 12 May 2011 - 13:46
|Does anyone want to do an exercise that reveals who the real conformation line dogs are that consistently produce working ability? This exercise should reveal two dogs that figure prominently in the pedigree. It will take participation from at least 10 people to start. Are there that many people out there that would care to contribute?|
by VKGSDs on 12 May 2011 - 16:14
|What is the exercise?|
by SitasMom on 12 May 2011 - 16:51
|I'll do it......|
by VonIsengard on 12 May 2011 - 17:24
|I will, Randy. You can use my Uzi's pedigree if you want, I know you like her. :)|
by Dog1 on 12 May 2011 - 17:29
|The exercise will be to identify the conformation line dogs that consistently produce working ability. Simple as that. There are a few. I have two on my list I think will prevail from my years of observation. These dogs are generally well known by breeders that breed for the work ethic.|
We wil use the unbiased combined effort of at least 10 people to find where the dogs that work come from.
I have one volunteer.....................So far the list of people that want to know is pretty short. Goes to show you how many conformation line breeders care. I would like to think they already know and just aren't interested.
It takes 10 to start the search. I'll outline the qualifications then.
by Chaz Reinhold on 12 May 2011 - 17:36
|VKGSD, I agree with most of what you wrote. Nice post, but you can see why people make it seem so black and white. By your numbers, I have to look at 200 SLs to find 1 good dog, but I onlu have to look at 5 WLs to find 1. I like the odds w/the WL quite a bit better.|
by Championl on 12 May 2011 - 17:36
|I will attempt this game, but why does it 10 people to start the search?|
by Dog1 on 12 May 2011 - 20:11
|I have two now. It takes 10 because I need to know at least 10 people out there care. No need wasting time figuring out whaich showlines produce working ability if no one cares.|
by Ibrahim on 12 May 2011 - 20:43
|I care but I don't have enough knowledge to share.|
by Rik on 12 May 2011 - 20:55
|count me in, but I'm not much on exercise.|
by Dog1 on 12 May 2011 - 22:01
|Ibrahim, you and Rik make 3rd and 4th volunteer. This will not be hard. I just need some assistants to look up information. Any others? We're almost halfway.|
by Ibrahim on 12 May 2011 - 22:01
by Rik on 12 May 2011 - 22:47
|O.K. we need 6 more to see what Randy is up to. Might be fun as well as informative for those with an interest.|
Ibrahim, you and I are pretty much at the same level as far as German dogs. I'm trying to learn also. Folks like Randy, who are willing to share info make the journey shorter.
by Ibrahim on 12 May 2011 - 22:58
|Rik, you're flattering me|