Main > Top Showlines with good protection phase (412 replies)
by Dog1 on 26 May 2011 - 04:42
Can you comment on any of Gucci's offspring or contribute anything about his breeder?
by lonewulf on 26 May 2011 - 13:43
|This is definitely been a very educational thread.....|
However it is always good to have a reality check.... and there is no better opprtunity for that than the very unique event that is slated to happen at the two ends of this country...
For the next 3 days: May 27-28-29 in Colorado in the West & in Pennsylvania in East..... 2 groups of dogs will compete on the basis of the best combination of structure and working ability in an event that combines both complete field work at the SchH3 level as well as formal ring work in a conformation evaluation....
These 2 events are perfect for anyone who is interested in gaining an understanding what is truly required in a dog to display structure that does not interfere with an ability to work and to also comprehend what is meant by temperament in a working capable german shepherd.
At the end of the day all the analysis one may do and the theorizing over bloodlines and pedigrees will boil down to the performance of individual specimen dogs on the field.....where they and their handlers show the watching public and the Internet analysts.... the classic statement .... "SHOW ME THE MONEY"!!!!
by Rik on 26 May 2011 - 14:21
|lonewolf, it will always come down to what is on the fuzzy end of the leash, no matter the venue. I know you have lobbied pretty hard for some changes that I feel would be very beneficial to the breed in the U.S. Hope you don't stop.|
Any change in direction must come from the top down, as most breeders are going to breed what wins. And ultimately what benefits their program the most. And I do not fault any at all for this. I've been there and done that.
I do think that there are folks in the U.S., like you, Randy, Cindy, who are influential enough to hopefully get implemented true character assessments.
Undoubtedly, the best of the best of GSD comes from Germany. But that does not mean that we in the U.S. must follow blindly into this contest of gait and beauty first. One need only look to the American Show Shepherd to see where this will ultimately lead.
Thank you for your efforts and contribution here. I'm sure there are other novices like me who it does not fall on deaf ears.
by Dog1 on 26 May 2011 - 14:49
|Let's take a break. We've identified some lines and dogs that work. It's out there, many have known where it is many have not. This exercise has derived the formula to a degree.|
So,,,what happens when you do get a dog that works. Another Jaguar, Lauis, Xasko, Jeck, etc. What are the chances of the dog reaching it's potential? Of all the dogs that have it, what does it take to get it there?
Ravi, You've had a very successful career with Juneau. Can you elaborate?
by lonewulf on 26 May 2011 - 16:20
Randy.... I will post something later.... but first why don't you also ask Kevin Nance who is acxtively competing with his showline at pretty much the same levels and also Karen Sinclair who is currently competing with her HOT dog.
In the meanwhile regarding your question.... "What does it take to get there"?
the answer is..... BOTH THE DOG AND THE HANDLER NEED TO FIRST GET OFF THER BEHINDS AND OFF THE COUCH!!!!
by gucci on 26 May 2011 - 16:23
|Hi Randy: I am thinking your question over, will get back to you...Lida|
by lonewulf on 28 May 2011 - 19:03
To answer Randy's question.... "what happens when you do get a dog that works. Another Jaguar, Lauis, Xasko, Jeck, etc. What are the chances of the dog reaching it's potential? Of all the dogs that have it, what does it take to get it there?"
.... with one of my own: "what happens when you do get a dog with VA quality structure, another Yasko, Enzo, Zamp, Dux.... What are the chances of that dog reaching its potential? Of all the dogs that have it (VA-grade structure), what does it take to get it there?"
AND THE ANSWER IS:
For the dog with VA potential---- You campaign... you show, train for the ring..... you carefully pick the judges and build a track record of wins....you form breeding alliances.... you network with other breeders & support them and their programs by breeding to their males (of course when the genetics match your dam obviously)....AND they in turn support you by breeding to your male (when the genetics suit what they have got of course).... you sell puppies from your breedings and work with your puppy buyers to assist them in raising them well and coach them in showing in your progeny groups..... you travel, go to Germany.... visit with SV Judges... be seen and see others... build a track record as a person serious in promoting and of course "breeding to better the breed".... you purchase potential studs or brood bitches and in this manner develop lasting relationships among the movers and players of the show world..... Mind you am only glossing over the most obvious aspects and I am sure that there is at least 3 times more depth to this...all of this is hard work no doubt, expensive too and definitely legitimate endeavors.....
Therefore for the showdog with working potential---- You train.... You find a good training club whose TD is willing to invest in the longer time it takes to train a novice....you travel upto 100 miles (one way) every week to the club.... you spend upto 12 hrs every week in training.... either alone with your dog in a rural field as you work the intracies of tracking or with your training group at your club.... and you will do this from the age of 9-10 months till the dogs 2nd year when you will face your first test the BH at or after 15 months of age.... (assuming that you do this honestly yourself)... and then if you have trained diligently and wisely and under comptetent training guidance then you will trial and earn your SchH1 title before the dog is 24 months old.... after that the ScH2 title around 30 months and the highly coveted SchH 3 title by 36 months..... but if you are doing all this for the first time and you want to go the honest route then do not be surprised and indeed congratulate yourself if you acheive the SchH3 before the dog's 4th birthday....
... and you will do all this while maintaining your day job and everything else that life throws at you....In my club I have seen seasoned people with very strong working dogs not reach the SchH3 title level until after the dog is 4 years simply because of any number of variables that comes up along the way....
... Of course along the way you have to show at a conformation show, do a AD, a breed survey, and then if you are going for the big leagues then you have to travel across the country to a Sieger show.... and you have to have a strong stomach and deep pockets for that too.....
If you're married you will either need your spouse (significant other if applicable) to be either involved actively with your effort or be extraordinarily understanding and who is willing to become a "Schutzhund Widow/Widower" in return for the passion that drives her/his partner.....
by lonewulf on 28 May 2011 - 19:33
by lonewulf on 28 May 2011 - 19:42
by Ibrahim on 28 May 2011 - 19:42
|Maybe it needs a good sized team of strong determined spirit. Well said Lonewulf.|
by lonewulf on 28 May 2011 - 20:33
|Contd. from prev. post.... What do you do if you have a dog that has working capability?:|
AND then if you are really crazy and have a dog that can do it all then you will compete in trials on strange fields under different helpers under different judges..... you will pack up on Friday evening after work & drive 6 hrs to a motel... check in around midnight... then get up in the morning at 5 am and report in to the trial secretary of the host club at 7 am.... spend the whole day in a trial while your dog sits all day in a crate in your van parked under a tree in hot humid weather.... you will be ready to pull your dog out make him pee and the two of you will do your small private ritual to get ready and then you will walk out on the field with him in perfect attention his eyes locked on your face and your eyes locked on the judge as you smile and shake hands while a million butterflies dance in your belly and your feet feel like lead.....
You turn your head to look at your dog... he looks back.... You take a deep breath and say "Fuss".... and the two of you begin to dance while the world and all the pain of a thousand hours slip away into nothingness.....
Ravi Iyer, Vienna, VA
by benzi on 28 May 2011 - 23:13
|To Lonewulf...very well put, great synopsis for the person thinking about working any dog, and I think that is just scraping the surface. Your club has to have GOOD dedicated helpers, (who deserve a great amount of credit,) AND a good training director who knows how to fix a problem correctly if one should arise, (which we all know will happen.) And...when you go to get your KKL1 Breed Survery, don't forget your AD, your dental notation, your show rating, AND passing hips and elbows. To have a great show dog with good/great protection work is the complete package and we know they are out there. As you stated, it takes and amazing amount of work and dedication and I have a lot of respect for people who don't give up. Even when you have all these great bloodlines mentioned here, it's take a whole lot to get to that VA or high V placement........|
by darylehret on 29 May 2011 - 02:00
|Sounds like a carefully laid trap to divert our attention from the genetics of the dog. Breeding to the highest placing dogs might ensure the longevity of the line, but the majority of breeders (who don't breed to "the" top placing dog) will need to recognize the potential seen in other dogs that don't place as high, or aren't as accomplished in their careers due to the handler's commitment and training skill fuzzying up the picture. Not saying it's wrong, just that the difference should be recognized. Genetics remain the bottom line.|
If you want to saturate the showlines with stronger working ability, there should be emphasis for developing a broader based strategy for identifying the dogs that offer the best breeding potential, and how conduct suitable matchmaking, with both short term and long term goals in mind. Breeders who have taken years or decades to develop what they have are going to naturally have an aversion to the idea of ruthlessly culling everything they've worked for or developed thus far, and instead will need to learn how to integrate what they have with the best that is available to them.
by djc on 29 May 2011 - 02:20
Please explain? What is a well laid trap?
We have been discussing genetics from the beginning of this thread and still are. Just because someone is adding in what the process in finishing a dog in the ring is, as well as work, does not divert attention away from genetics in my eyes. It only firms it up, because a dog with out the proper genetics is just not going to make it in one area or another. It's a very long and scarey process because there is so much that has to fall into place. Some of it is in the hands of the the handler/breeder and some of it is not. Take hips and elbows for example.... we all know that even breeding a superb background for good hips and elbows CAN sometimes throw us a curve.
Also, the dogs/bloodlines we are discussing here have very little to do with breeding to whomever the top dog is.In fact quite the opposite!! We are discussing who the top WORK PRODUCING, show dogs have been down through history. Some of them have been VA dogs and some of them not.
I'm probably just misunderstanding what you are saying so hence, the statement... Please explain.
by lonewulf on 29 May 2011 - 03:42
|Thank you Debby,|
And to Daryleheret.... I have this to say:
I was simply answering Randy Brent's question.... far be it for me to try to entrap you or anyone else with the simple fact of what it takes to finish any dog honestly whether it is for show or for work.... been there and done that and hence what I say is after walking the entire distance....
And regards superior training and handler committment fuzzying the genetic picture..... well that is the perpetual statement behind which mediocrity hides.... "Oh! My dog has the genetics to do all of that, I simply cannot train him as well..... OR that dog is good only because So & So trained him"
....let me tell you what I heard a world class working handler say at a seminar I attended..... to someone who could not comprehend that his dog didn't have what was necessary....
"Dude! Only eagles fly like eagles..... all the training is only to make an eagle fly faster or strike harder..... but if you have a turkey then you can give it all the training you want and at the end of the day all you'll have is a lot of gobble-gobble and a lot of flapping around..... Your dog bites like a bird and all the training is only going to make it peck that sleeve to death!!!"
by darylehret on 29 May 2011 - 04:15
|No, no. Please don't take it that way, or as any form of criticism whatsoever. The expression was meant only to aid my explanation that our perceptions are easily tricked in regards to what's truly pertinent to breeding success for working ability, on both the overall level of the showline population, and in individual breeding pursuits. Don't fall into the trap of breeding for points, to the most "accomplished" dogs, etc.|
by lonewulf on 29 May 2011 - 13:26
|No offense taken Darylehret..... your point is valid and I understand what you mean now that you clarify it.....|
But here is the conundrum: All the analysis of genetics is based on some assessment done by someone about the superior capabilities of an individual dog versus other candidates....
No dog is born into this world automatically knowing schutzhund.... no dog wakes up in the morning and says Today I am going to be a VA or today I am going to be SchH3 champ!..... These are assessments applied to the dog by a human judging agency based on the dog's ability to serve the direction of its master or based upon the dog anatomical characteristics.....
These assessments are based on an arbitrary set of values that we collectively have stated are desirable attributes and that these assessment categories (VA/V/SG & SchH3/chH2/SchH1 etc etc) are surrogate markers of these desirable attributes in this animal.....
If I understand you correctly... you are saying that the diligent breeder will not rely only upon these external assessments but also upon his own direct conclusions after he/she has been able to directly observe the animal.....
I will definitely agree that this is a very desirable attribute to have in a breeder but at the same time it is also an unfortunate rarity just like the scarcity of true working capability in showlines....
Take for instance the Univ Sieger trials being held today on the 2 sides of this country.... it is indeed very laudable that those who entered did so and it is wonderful to see them step forward to show the watching public what to look for in a shepherd capable of working by presenting real examples and not paper claims.....
BUT does it not strike anyone as depressing that in this country whre there are at least 200-300 SchH3 titled Sieger show capable Showline male and female GSD's only 5 dogs were judged by their handlers as capable of entering a SchH3 trial and a conformation show that is at best of a Regional show level??? ..... And of these 5 (because 1 dog was pulled) only 3 dogs are showline GSD's ???......
the criteria for entry in this event were vastly easier than for the USA UNIVERSAL SIEGER EVENT which required a Sieger show participation, A 270 score to be earned in the same year at a SchH3 trial, a participation at a Regional Championship and then competing at the USA GSD NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS!
If this is the state of the breed pool.... then all of Randy's analysis is meaningless.... just a feel good set of statements that serve only to drive the unsuspecting and ignorant reader of these posts to either buy more puppies from the purveyors of such genetics or to purchase more stud services from the champions of these so called lines......
.... which is why I stick to my guns and insist.... like Daryehret.... look for concrete examples of living dogs that have shown proven working ability.... go see them in action and then make your breeding decisions....
genetics ladies and gentlemen is where you came from..... the working field is where you are today.... you don't drive looking in the rear view mirror... why would you breed in that way?
by Ibrahim on 29 May 2011 - 14:01
|In this thread there is a lot to anticipate and think of, I only wish I don't loose track.|
by lonewulf on 29 May 2011 - 17:35
I would like to bring peoples attention to one dog that is today competing at the WDA-Univ. Sieger trials....
Zambo vom Riedschlurgi
This is a dog that is VA in structure and can actually work .... it is indeed very puzzling to me that no one on this thread wanted to talk about him.... One would think that everyone would be falling over themselves to study the genetics of this dog....
This is why I am very sceptical about the agenda of the internet genetics analysts who would have evryone beleive that they have the mantra to the whole working ability issue solved
by Jagenstadt on 29 May 2011 - 18:40
|I think Zambo is a SUPER nice dog and he has produced well.|
I advised my friend to breed to him some months ago and he has had a really nice litter.
Erin has done a SUPER job training with Zambo...his career is just begining!
* As a side note, I have heard that Tuareg v. Bad Boll is now in the U.S. in Miami!