Main > Top Showlines with good protection phase (412 replies)
by Championl on 18 May 2011 - 00:13
|Just wanted to point out, since we are looking into trends of good working show lines, that all three of the WDA Universal Sieger competitors have Yello St Michaels Berg in their pedigrees. Now let's see how these competitors do!|
by Dog1 on 18 May 2011 - 00:19
|Good observation. I'm confident we will soon see Enzo Buchorn being one of the better producers as the dogs identified here fade out of the pedigrees with Yello being one of the better. I co own a Yello daughter.|
by AandA on 18 May 2011 - 10:21
|Good 'ol Enzo is also on the mothers side of Camillo.|
by Dog1 on 18 May 2011 - 12:47
|You'll see some good work coming from Baru too. So far I don't think Enzo and Baru will be quite the producer Vando and Quartz were. Time will tell.|
by Louise M. Penery on 18 May 2011 - 20:34
|Besure to look at the dam's lines, too. Above all, no matter how good a do'g's protection work may be, he must have sufficient libido to get the job done with a natural breeding. He must also come from bloodlines not pre-disposed to early death due to genetically-predisposed diseases (especially various forms of cancer).|
by Dog1 on 18 May 2011 - 22:01
Cello and the dogs from Frei have the same color, yet they are not related. Can you add another color for Cello?
Going back to your earlier question. Do you think Camillo's breder knew what he was doing when he bred the litter or was it just luck? I'll answer in a few minutes.
by Ibrahim on 18 May 2011 - 22:33
|I did the edit, Cello and Frei have two different colors now, thank you.|
by lonewulf on 19 May 2011 - 00:55
|I saw Ikon vom Olympus work in 2006 when he earned his SchH3 title under SV Judge Vic Wilms at Upper Bucks SchH club in PA....... and it was impressive...... solid protection work and handsome powerful male to boot...|
His early demise was a loss to the gene pool on the East Coast!
by wlpool on 19 May 2011 - 00:56
|Wow, you guys ROCK!!!!!! Thanks for all of the effort and thought that went into this. It is sure to help many MANY folk out there (including me :-)|
Thanks so so much!
by Dog1 on 19 May 2011 - 01:25
I did his breed survey.
I was in NC the weekend he got his SchH1. The only dog to get a title that weekend. I had heard one show dog passed all the other dogs failed.
This young lady approached me in her dress with younger brothers in tow and asked in a polite way if I would do his breed survey in a few weeks. I didn't know her or her dog. I just imagined this young girl got a dog that was titled. I fugured the dog had spent the last year or so on the couch. I proceeded to tell her all the reasons it was not a good idea for someone else to survey your dog. I just imagined the dog not knowing me would fail the breed survey and I'd have to think of something appropriate to say after I just messed her dog up. I envisioned her and her brothers in tears with me feeling like crap for months later. It was a shure 'no good deed goes unpunished' situation in the making if I ever saw one.
Little did I know, this dog Ikon was about as close to Jaguar Mausespitz as I've ever handled. Ikon was usually very correct and controlled. He didn't know who I was and he sort of exploded all over the helper. I was happy he listened when I told him to out, he knew I didn't have the control his trainer did and I think he took advantage of me a little.
He was a great asset to the breed. Too bad very few recognized his power and ability. He lives on through his son Ando who's now working the street as a police K-9. Ando is still producing. In fact he was bred to a Ronaldo (Quartz Templari grandson) daughter last week. This is one of the few breedings that combine Quartz and Vando. Should be an interesting litter.
by lonewulf on 19 May 2011 - 02:36
|It is strange how fate moves Randy..... you handled Ikon for his breed survey when he was only a SchH1 and you handled my dog Juneau for his first conformation V rating when he was a SchH1 too.... and got him a V3 placing to boot.....|
2 showdogs with working ability and both started their careers after being handled by you...... may be you need to come over to the dark side after all....!
by Dog1 on 19 May 2011 - 14:20
|The question came up whether a breeder actually had the foresight to produce a dog or were they just lucky?|
Each breeder has a vision of what the German Shepherd should be. They strive from generation to generation to produce this type of dog and improve upon their last. There are showline breeders that breed strictly for conformation and hope by the grace of God somebody can put a title on one of their dogs. There are showline breeders that breed numbers, highest placing dogs get their female regardless. There are breeders that truly have a feel for animals, genetics and can predict what they will produce by knowing their females and the males that will combine to produce the desired traits.
It doesn't take long to look at a program and decide the breeders objections. If their website says; Super Supreme Ultimate Extra VA1!, TOP, TOP, TOP! Best in the WORLD!!!! and there are no results anywhere to be found from these breeders, there's a pretty good chance they fall into the first two catagories.
If the website quietly displays the accomplishments and proudly posts the pedigrees of their dogs with many of their dogs in the motherline and there are results available for everyone to see generation after generation. You have a breeder.
Let's start with Amigo and look at what happened with him. I'll share what I know which is limited since I never met him. I only know him through what he produced. From Amigo there were three sons in a position to carry on the family tradition. Cento Monopteros, Pitt Tronje, Quartz Templari.
Cento produced one or two. Kerry Torberg (who was VA in the US) was probably his best. There was just not enough from Cento to impact the breed.
Pitt Tronje went VA in Germany and had his chance. He was a dominant producer of work, but he was also a dominant producer of physical characteristics that didn't work well with many females let's say.... I had one of his best, so I can say that.
Quartz went VA in Germany too. Not a high VA, but high enough to put him on the list. He got a few good females. There were some good offspring in both females and males that could produce. He was able to pass on some decent physical traits and most important his mind and heart. That's what I like about what I've seen from him. The dogs have heart. You can put them in many situations they are not comfortable with and they just stay there and face it until they're done. They don't know why they don't stop, they just don't. They show some pressure now and then, but they stay there and work through it.
Quartz was owned by Karl-Heinz Fuller of the 'vom Zellergrund' kennel. I've been to Schweinfurt, seen some of the Quartz offspring, and there are many good dogs in the area with Quartz in the pedigree. There were two males from Quartz, Triumph's Gucci and Romeo Pallas Athena left to carry on. Both of these breeder's were very concerned about working ability in their breeding program. Lyda who purchased Gucci may be able share some insight about Bo and his breeding program, I'll talk a little about Romeo.
Romeo's breeder, an SV working judge, tends to want dogs that work from the looks of what he has produced with Camillo who won a performance award at the sieger show in Germany being the latest of his successes I'm aware of,,,,besides the VA1 female that is.
Here you have a breeder that for years has bred to not necessarily the most popular dog but the best dog he thought for his female and generation after generation has consistently bred top placing conformation with excellent temperament for work.
So if we ask was Camillo a result of planning or luck, I think there's a bit of planning that went into it and Camillo was the result of a predictable breeding.
by Rik on 19 May 2011 - 14:23
|Just want to say thanks to Randy for turning this into a very interesting and informative thread. And to Ibrahim for the work you put into it.|
by Dog1 on 19 May 2011 - 14:35
|There's many others that can contribute. I'm hoping some will. Sadly all the real talent was driven from this board years ago.|
by Ibrahim on 19 May 2011 - 14:40
What you said above is one of the best informative, true and honest posts I read on this forum so far, arn't we blessed to have members like yourself on this forum and more importantly in the life itself !! Thank you for sharing your experience, thoughts and knowledge with us, I find that very generous of you.
by apoArmani on 19 May 2011 - 15:06
by Dog1 on 19 May 2011 - 15:29
|Ghandi and Yasko are popping up. I don't have any accumulation of information on either of them. I do have a yasko daughter that works very well. Her work is good, I'd say excellent. Her SchH2 judge commented; "We shouldn't sell dogs like this to America." Hopefully someone else can contribute.|
by huntshep on 20 May 2011 - 00:46
|Natz is producing excellent character, pigment and structure. Here is a link to some of the progeny Natz has produced|
by Kevin Nance on 20 May 2011 - 05:23
|Natz is a nice dog; I like him. Would you post some of his trial scores and levels of competitive participation since earning his Sch 3 so that his temperament and ability can be (somewhat) further extrapolated. Thanks in advance.... Kevin Nance|
by lonewulf on 20 May 2011 - 10:16
|Nice post & Thank you Kevin....|
It is one thing to acknowledge solid ability as they are provably demonstrated by examples of dogs that are still among the living such as Ule, Vandal, Aeros, Juneau.... or to talk of dogs that provably demonstrated in the past and now are remembered as ancestral names on a pedigree chart......
But it is totally different to take any current dog and wax large on their working ability simply upon their ancestry.....
Would any one claim VA ratings based on ancestry without actually earning it at a National Breed show?
Working ability is not encapsulated in the behavior displayed by a single bite.....
The following are some of the characteristics required:
1. Constant Engagement with environment...... the dog is always curious and will investigate every overturned stone in its vicinity.
2. Biddablity.... the dog will always want to please its handler
3. Ability to switch drives..... can move from guarding to aggression to stand by without difficulty in such transitions
4. Anatomic Architecture that permits the ability to work as long as the desire to work still exists...... this means a dog that can still do a meter jump 7-8 years...... mind you for those who claim that a shepherd is a trotting dog and that tending sheep doesn't require jumping....
... THE VERY FIRST EXERCISE IN HERDING requires the dog to jump into the sheep pen from outside and move to the gate of the pen while the shepherd gets ready to open the gate..... NO JUMP NO HERDING!..... & no shepherd can afford to have all his investment in a trained dog disappear with a dog that can work only till age 4 or 5.
To use the brush of ancestral performance and paint large bold swipes across entire pedigrees without current proven working members is flawed analysis at best .... and a marketing hype aimed to delude the ignorant at worst
There is more & I will continue later... since I have to go to work now....