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Main > hip certification compairison (23 replies)

by SitasMom on 26 October 2010 - 20:10

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I found this in a book and thought it was worth posting,

by SitasMom on 26 October 2010 - 21:10

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I've noticed that there are many people on this site that seem to think that "a2" hips are fine, but avoid dogs with a "Fair" and "Borderline" ratings........why is this?

by TingiesandTails on 26 October 2010 - 22:10

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I don't know what changed but "noch zugelassen" used to be Borderline 30 years ago...."noch zugelassen" used to be femur in socket but with slight shadows on femur head.

by jdiaz1791 on 26 October 2010 - 23:10

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As far as I know, OFA fair = a3 , maybe it was just misaligned in drawing, because there's no in between... A1= OFAexc = A A2 = OFA good = B A3 = OFA fair = C Not that is anything new , many books are written or copied and don't know any better

by SitasMom on 27 October 2010 - 17:10

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jdiaz1791 - better check again - .

I was very surprised when I saw an incorrect chart in the USA Sieger Show program booklet this past spring. Even the fine folks at the USA organization seem to be confused.......

OFA simplified the above chart info into the following and posted it on their website. It basically shows the same values.

OFA comparison chart shows the following........
a2 (fast normal) being "borderline" and a3 (noch zugelassen) being "mild".......



 
How many breeders use "Fast Normal" dogs in their breeding programs while they pass up "Fair" and "Borderline" dogs?

How many breeders are confused and think they're breeding to improve hips and instead are perpetuating the problem?
 

by trixx on 27 October 2010 - 21:10

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that is why i go by the ZW number, its a better idea of whats going on in the lines. as two A1 dogs can produce bad hip pups. look at  the ZW ,  i wont use anything above 90. and prefer in the 70's.

by SitasMom on 28 October 2010 - 05:10

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The ZW number does make selecting a dog much easier, but not all dogs have ZW #'s, especially if they are from countries other then Germany.

I've been surprised by how many "experienced breeders" don't understand or dont care about the above charts.

by duke1965 on 28 October 2010 - 10:10

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above charts are totally incorect , as to  the dogs I had evaluated in various countries some years ago

a dog with FCI rating C equals  zugelassen , but was given OFA fair in USA

numerous dogs with FCI  rating B  , all got OFA exelent

so my actual findings do not come even close to the above chart

maybe interesting to do some double or triple test again these days

by rollingstones on 28 October 2010 - 10:10

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I had a dog FN and she was rated Excellent with GDC before GDC became part of OFA. I have a NZ male and his hips look great.

Carina von der Wienerau was NZ and she was OFA good at 35 months.

See for yourself: http://offa.org/results.html?all=carina+von+der+wienerau

She was not "a" normal as she is listed here. She is in the Winsis as NZ.


by cage on 28 October 2010 - 12:10

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We have no A1,A2,B1 or B2 in my country and we go according to FCI standard - we have A,B,C,D and E. A,B and C are allowed for breeding.

by SitasMom on 29 October 2010 - 02:10

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just because a "c" is allowed for breeding doesn't mean its good for breeding!

by BlackthornGSD on 29 October 2010 - 16:10

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SitasMom, just because the chart makes those comparison doesn't mean they're valid.

Too many people have taken fast-normal or nz-rated dogs and gotten OFA Fair/Good/Excellent on them for that chart to be used as a reliable translator of the different ratings.



by Rik on 29 October 2010 - 16:10

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don't know if something changed, but Fair used to mean no sign of HD,

I would consider it in making an evaluation, but I would not pass over a great dog with Fair just to breed to a lesser dog with excellent.

Lots of other things to consider also.


by cage on 30 October 2010 - 20:10

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SitasMom,I agree with others that the charts are not correct.On the other hand,I agree with you about breeding dogs with C hips.I would avoid using them for breeding and from what I see the other breeders in Slovakia use such a male stud very very rarely, also there are only a few females with this rating being used,and I can say that 90 percent of the time it is SL breeders in my country who do so.

by Mr.GSD on 31 October 2010 - 22:10

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SitasMom could have told what book she found that table in.   Just as a courtesy to the author. It takes a LOT of lifework to develop such books for the benefit of the sport and its fanciers, and it would be nice to see one's hard work appreciated with proper credit.  Next time, OK?

by trixx on 01 November 2010 - 01:11

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lets not forget a very good VA1 Jeck von Nocium , he has NZ hips and produced very good hip pups. thats why i look at the Zw number, and if i cant find  the dog with an A stamp i will go back  a Gen, do an est. guess, i am really big on doing this. and i now get to the point where i want very good ZW on the stud and yes , i would use A1 over A2 or A3. but you are right , the hips are not the only reason to use a stud.  i too have seen A2 go OFA good,  A3 go OFA good too.so i dont believe this chart is the best.

by SitasMom on 01 November 2010 - 02:11

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Canine Hip Dysplasia and other Orthobpedic Disorders
Fred Lanting
Second Printing
Page 215

Same book that Pager advertises......
the first chart shows that fast normal is both fair AND borderline.............how many people that have purchased a fast normal have gone as far as to submit xrays to ofa to see how they come out? Most likely none - becasue so many people seem to believe that fast normal is the same as good and prefer to think this then to find out for real.

by Bob-O on 01 November 2010 - 11:11

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I've said it before, and will say it again. There is NO direct relationship of the ratings for the various hip registries. The examining doctors are all trained to examine radiographs and all seem to agree on what contitutes canine hip dysplaisie. Their findings are compared to the established criteria for each registry. 

I have used both the O.F.A. and the S.V. to interpret hip scores and have never been surprised at their findings. Can a dog score "better" or "worse" if evaluated by more than one (1) registry? Sure they can. What difference does it make? Perhaps none at all.

I think of it like this; the O.F.A. evaluates practically every breed of purebred dog and derives the score from the established model for that breed. There is a "perfect" canine hip model, but each major breed has its own version of the model. Some breeds do much better than others when it comes to comparison to the "perfect" model. The S.V. deals only with the German Shepherd Dog.
 
By the way; "a" 2 (fast Normal) is considered to be the established norm in the S.V. system for the purpose of calculating the ZW number. In other words; a slim majority of examined German Shepherd Dogs will fit this model. It is a passing score, and (in my opinion) absolutely breedworthy if it is associated with low ZW and many examined siblings.

The O.F.A. does not use a ZW-type system, but they have discussed it. The main problem is obtaining the data as most AKC-registered German Shepherd Dogs are never examined. And of course they would need a ZW system for every breed of purebred dog. I am not faulting the O.F.A. as many S.V.-registered dogs are never examined either.

So in the end; look at the placement within the scoring models; look at the ZW; and look at what the dog offers apropos maintaining the breed standard or improving the breed standard. If you don't have a ZW to use as a reference; try to determine some idea of predictability by examining as many ancestors (and their siblings) as possible.

Best Regards,
Bob-O

by SitasMom on 01 November 2010 - 13:11

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Say an X-ray of a GSD from a foreign country was submitted to the SV and they had no information about this dog's ancestors. If the dog was graded as an "a2" would its score then be a ZW 100?

This sounds like common sense........
 It is a passing score, and (in my opinion) absolutely breedworthy if it is associated with low ZW and many examined siblings.



by Lief on 02 November 2010 - 10:11

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its imprtant to remember OFA does them at 2 everyone else does them at one year, its difficult to compare since OFA denotes superior hip joint conformantion and the others do not and the percentage of dogs with Ex hips in GSD while improving Is still small compared to some other breeds Fair is minor irregularities and is proven to throw higher rates of dysplasia as a whole. though in a breed with only 5 percent Ex 20 percent dysplastic and 25 percent fair its acceptable to use fair but should only be bred to good or Ex .  Breeds with high rates of dysplasia always have high percentages of fair and low rates of Ex , In breeds with high rates of Ex  like Labradors fair is not acceptable since they have double the rate of ex compared to fair where as GSD has five times more fair than ex....... catch 22

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