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ForumsMain > what determines a VA (23 replies)
what determines a VA by spaetzle on 24 May 2005 - 16:00 |
| what criteria is used to determine a VA? I have noticed that in the 2004 Sieger Show in Karlsruhe there were 165 males of which 9 were awarded VA. There were 126 females of which 11 were awarded VA. In the Sieger Show in United States, Nevada there were 30 males of which 10 were awarded VA. There were 20 females of which 8 were awarded VA. Does this mean that there are less dogs but better quality in the United States than in Germany? These are some of the same SV judges that judge in Germany.Is it easier to VA in the United States or are the dogs judged to the same standard as in Germany? Percentage wise does this mean the United States now has better class of dog than Germany? And what of progeny? Their were only 4 Kennel Groups at the United Schutzhund Show. Only a few of the VA males even had offspring in the other classes. Does progeny even factor in to the judging of the VA dog presented in the United States Shows? If these statistics show that the quality of dogs is better in the United States than why would anyone feel the need to buy and ship a dog from Germany? |
by Saoa on 24 May 2005 - 19:19 |
| If DOG1 is around, could he put in his opinion? Or any SV judge? I wondered about the same many times over... |
by Peter Cadman on 24 May 2005 - 19:23 |
| if the german judge does not make several USA dogs VA he will not be invited back. the standards are more strict in europe and the audience is much bigger . we are in it for fun they are in it for business, BIG BUSINESS. Peter Cadman www.germanshepherddog.tv |
by Dog1 on 24 May 2005 - 22:34 |
| Ill give this one a shot. It involves quite a few perspectives. First lets identify the German Sieger Show as supreme. These animals are shown throughout the year, they and their offspring are judged across Germany each week. Even though a dog may be young and its offspring are not old enough to be in the sieger show. Doesnt mean no one knows what the dogs are producing. This show is the world standard. It is what it is. Is it perfect? Nope. Each year good dogs make marginal placings and marginal dogs make good placings. If it were as easy as identifying which dog is best by its placing at the sieger show. This wouldnt be much of a challenge would it? When it comes to VA in Germany. These are supposed to be the best of the best. Their heritage, genetics, production, promotion, breeders acceptance, show placings are all taken into account. Special importance is placed on the dogs genetic potential to produce exceptional dogs. Some do, some do not. Heres my perspective between the two types of VA ratings. Those in Germany represent the lines that show the most promise from the dogs the judges think have the best potential to produce. Germany is small and if you want a VA dog. Chances are there is one not too far away. In the US, usually about 20 to 30 % of the class is awarded VA. These are the judges opinion of which animals are the best. Historically most rate top 100 V at the German sieger show. The US is a larger country geographically. Chances are even with 10 VA dogs, you will have to go a long way to breed to one. There are differences in quality between the two shows and the two ratings. In the end the judge tries to share his knowledge and offer his opinion on which dogs are most deserving. From there, its up to the breeders to agree or disagree with the selection. |
Dog1 by spaetzle on 25 May 2005 - 04:19 |
| Very diplomatically presented Dog 1. But when I look at the VA dogs from the past two United States Sieger Shows several of the imports never showed in Germany. TO quote Dog1 { The US is a larger country geographically. Chances are even with 10 VA dogs, you will have to go a long way to breed to one.} My question then is, "And why would I want to?" if these ratings are gifts or political favors? So is the VA awarded truly about the quality of the dog with all the considerations that are supposed to be factored in or the politics of the judge, breeder and owner? In the US, a larger country geographically, the VA dogs seem to be in "regional" clusters. I still think that the statistics show that either the Americans are being "patronized" and duped by the SV judges or VAs are a comodity bestowed upon the politically afluent or the quality of the GSD is better in the United States than Germany. The statistics are pretty clear. I can't be the only one to notice this pattern. |
by Dog1 on 25 May 2005 - 04:52 |
| This is probably a topic that will need to be discussed back and forth a couple times. Too big to cover with a few paragraphs. When you consider the GSD breed world wide. Would it be fair if Germany and it's 9 or so dogs per year be the only VA in the world? As for the VA placings in countries outside Germany. Each Countries sieger show sets the stage for that countries best GSDs. The dogs do the protection routine and allow the breeders and participants to see what the dog has to offer. The dogs that pass are considered for the VA rating in that country. The idea being that those are the best available for breeding in that country. These ratings are not necessarily give aways. Many of the VA rated dogs were pretty close to VA in Germany or offer similar genetics as the best in Germany. I don't think anyone thinks the quality of the 10 VA dogs here in the US is across the board better than the VA from Germany. It's an apple to orange comparison. I believe the system is intact. The German VA dogs are listed VA. VA dogs from other countries are listed VA (with the country of VA listed) When considering a dog for breeding you have the option; seek your German VA, breed the best VA you have access to. Breed a dog you like and help make it the next VA dog. The third group is where the real interesting breeders are. By the time a dog is VA. He's almost a has been in these breeders eyes. The real breeders don't worry about ratings. They select the best up and coming young dogs and breed their best to them. This process produces the next generation of VA dogs through their breeding efforts. |
by spaetzle on 25 May 2005 - 05:57 |
| In answer to Dog 1 " When you consider the GSD breed world wide. Would it be fair if Germany and it's 9 or so dogs per year be the only VA in the world?"... response.... No, but I would expect a criteria equal and fair to the quality of the dog per the rating given whether in Germany or United States. VA should be a revered rating and not to be compromised for popularity of judge, country, breeder or agent. The system may not be perfect but it should reflect a honest and fair rating from the SV judge with an expert opinion of the BEST dogs taking into consideration pedigree, progeny and performance. The rest is just nonsense and should be stopped!!! |
by Dog1 on 25 May 2005 - 11:49 |
| Spaetzle, So now it's your turn. What do you feel is nonsense and should be stopped? Why in your opinion is a VA rating in any other country not equal to the criteria for VA? |
by Joanna on 25 May 2005 - 15:06 |
| It would be far better for the breed and an honest and accurate placing, if the judges officiating at the USCA and WDA Sieger would apply the same standards for awarding VA's in Germany. They don't! By continuing the practice of lowering the bar, it cheapened the VA rating to the point whereby one must ask, "What country did the dog earn the VA?" Where did the dog place at the German Sieger Show? "Who was the judge, who bestowed the VA? What critiques and placing has the dog earned in competiton in Europe? |
by Dog1 on 25 May 2005 - 17:15 |
| OK Joanna, Be specific, what standards are applied at the German sieger show that are not applied at a US show? These questions will always be and should be asked. What country did the dog earn the VA?" Where did the dog place at the German Sieger Show? "Who was the judge, who bestowed the VA? What critiques and placing has the dog earned in competiton in Europe? |
by spaetzle on 26 May 2005 - 03:47 |
| OK Dog 1, What country did the dog earn the VA? (answer) what difference does it make if it was an SV judge and the STANDARD was from the SV? I guess that answers your second question also (considering what critiques and placing has the dog earned?) The standard should be the same! Any judge representing the SV should judge the dogs the same as from Geramny including into their opinion the standard of the SV and hopefully eliminating obvious "POLITICS". Do not lower the standard of the VA title by compromising the qualification and giving it away in any country. The judges are from the SV and SO what else but the official standard of the SV should determine the placements of the dogs? |
by Kim Edberg on 26 May 2005 - 10:45 |
| I think that you are missing the reason for the VA title. Titles can not be comparered across country borders. The VA listings are used as a guideline to which the breeders of a country can see what dogs should be prefered to be used for stud. The name say Vorgesugliche Auslese or prefered for breeding. Roug translation. V simply means that the dog is very god and has no flaws that would be unwanted in the breeding |
by Dog1 on 26 May 2005 - 16:24 |
| Spaetzle, I guess I'm missing your point. The criteria is the same. Dog must pass the protection work pronounced, be SchH2 or equivalent, Breed surveyed from surveyed parents, correct dentation, yada, yada. The criteria is the same. What's missing? I don't see the difference in standard that you mention. What requirement exists in Germany that does not exist in the US for a dog to get a VA rating? |
by D.H. on 26 May 2005 - 18:14 |
| The number of BSZS dogs is a bit off Spaetzle. You forgot the dogs excused by the vet, and those that did not get a show rating. Many dogs never make it to the German Siegershow to show their stuff for various reasons. Not in top shape, out of coat, previous injury, recent litter, there are many more reasons. And yes, during the show season it may become obvious that the BSZS judge may simply not prefer that particular type of dog and squash an excellent dogs chances well before the BSZS. A different judge will produce different show results. Would be terrible if all judges judged the same. We would all have cookie cutter dogs. So a dog may not get the top placing in Germany under judge A, but it may excell at a different Siegershow under judge B. That does not diminish the quality of the show nor the quality of the judging. You also have to consider regional differences. The type of dogs present and presented in a particular area will influence how the dogs are being judged. You even have these regional differences within Germany. Though the Standard is SV and the judges are SV, the judging will always reflect the judges individual interpretation of that standard. And the dogs performance on that one particular day. He may well have an off day at a different show. In the US in particular the distances keep many good dogs from showing. The event nearly replaces a weeks holiday for the people involved, includes extensive travel for most, and considerable expenses. The clusters of placings would be a logical result of more people showing close to the event. One thing that Dog1 only briefly mentioned is that way too many people focus on just the VA rating. The consistently top producing kennels in Germany breed the dogs they feel are necessary to keep them in the top quality. A dog itself may not be the best in show but it may be a good producer. Or it may improve on certain important criteria. If everyone just uses the VA males we only have offspring from a handful of dogs. That is hardly the purpose of the Siegershows. Sadly, outside of Germany any dog ranked lower than V10 gets snuffed as not good enough. In Germany the whole first ring basically is considered the cream of the crop. Second ring is still considered a very noteworthy accomplishment. The non VA dogs may not be used as frequently for stud - but that is merely a result to popular reaction, not a reflection on actual quality of the dogs. People have to overcome that popular notion themselves. As to the German Sieger show being the best? Imagine American Football becoming a most popular sport all over the world. Superbowls are being played in several different countries. Though there may be fewer games the quality of the players is excellent and so are the games. The winning team is very deserving of their trophy. In the end, there is only one true Superbowl though, the American Superbowl. The German Siegershow is THE Superbowl of GSD shows... |
by Gem on 26 May 2005 - 20:45 |
| A v a dog has something to offer the breed, as the judgeing progresses over the show season progeny are noticed that stand out over others, maybe a front assembly, top line, more correct length, etc... the difference between the US and Germany are the numbers, a large difference. A male rated high in Germany can be a U S or Canadian Sieger, even tho he didn't make it in Germany, beause he's still considered better then the males in either country and potentially could produce progeny closer to the standard. Breeders cloud the issues by smoke screening competition, every one should attempt to learn how to judge the different in top lines. this way you can see for your self which V A shepherds have something to offer your line. I didn't like Bax, but aparently the judge did. |
by spaetzle on 01 June 2005 - 02:38 |
| No DH, the numbers in my post are the numbers of dogs given a VA per ratio of dogs given a rating. I did not include excused or pulled. I guess that I am learning that the whole rating game is just a big marketing ploy. What the heck is the importance of a VA if it can be bought, bartered or given by the judge that actually bred the dog (why wouldn't that be considered just a bit of a conflict of interest)? What credibility lies in the system as it exists? Everyone that I have talked to admits that it is politically incorrect but will remain this way until changes come from the SV from the TOP down. There are some dogs that are truly select and deserve their rating but I would hate to know how many got it through deceptive manuvers. What have they done to our breed Max? |
by Gem on 01 June 2005 - 07:23 |
| who better to judge a progeny bred by a judge, the judge him self. if the judge is a well respected judge who has bred good dogs for several yrs, they should know what a good shepherd from their line is. I agree it looks rotten to those who don't understand the process. it looks especially bad when the dogs are in another country, and the judge is ask to judge the show. how would it feel to have progeny from a top male bred by that judge and find them placed last in the classes. I think this judge hasn't a clue on how to breed shepherds that can reproduce. or the judge dosen't like what he produces. |
by D.H. on 01 June 2005 - 08:19 |
| Well Spaetzle, your numbers are still off because a T rating, a U rating is still a rating. That is how the dog performed that day and that is how it was judged and that is what the dog had earned that day. Had it done better IT could have been the VA of the day. Ghandi was VA in 02, he did not out in 03 = no VA, he passed the bite work in 04 = VA again. So this dog is not to be included in the number of dogs showing just because he received a T? Dogs receiving an EZ rating still need to be included because they had started to participate at the show and were pulled during the course of the event for whatever reasons. They too could have been a VA of the day.
Political? Yes - every time you do something as part of an organized something or other will you have politics. But lets also be realistic. No dog will receive a top rating anywhere unless it is a good representative of the breed worthy to be made the poster boy or girl for that year and with a VA to become part of GSD history. No money in the world will buy a dog a VA that is a below standard dog, a G rated dog, an SG rated dog, a barely V rated dog. No friendship is that close to result in an embarrassment for the judge just because he wants to do buddy a favor with putting a crappy dog onto a VA spot. And no sex in the world will be that good either to get your mediocre dog that VA :o). You can have all the fun in the world trying though |
by spaetzle on 02 June 2005 - 03:36 |
| DH you missed the point...the numbers were meant only to show the lopsided persentage of VAs awarded per dogs awarded ratings. If you want to expand the numbers than it becomes even more evident that the awarded ratings ratio is lopsided(but for your sake let us define the numbers from Karlsruhe as recorded: VA 9 V 150 SG 5 g 1 u 5 ez 27 t1 2 t2 4 t3 39 t4 3 So where we stand is out of 245 entries there were 9 VAs. Would you still like to compare that to the amount of entries for the USA Sieger Show compared to the amount of VAs awarded and make some sort of educational guess as to what that reflects on overall quality? And what about progeny? Was there any progeny considered in either Country when the VAs were awarded? I will not even go there as to who is sleeping with whom....or how successful that ended up..nor will I consider who may be carrying cash gifts to Germany...or who is selling whose kennel garbage for judging favors..... The decision to put such a huge value on the VA is a marketing ploy and even someone who pretends to be as naive as you can not truly believe that we are competing in a fair venue.But that brings us to the JUDGES.... If all the people that pay their entries believing that they have a fair chance to win based on the quality of their dog find out that the results are already decided (bought out by dirty politics) no longer enter, who will pay for the extravaganza? Who will pay for the airfares and expenses of the judges? My suggestion is that we STOP buying dogs from Germany because we have some very good dogs bred in the US. My suggestion is that we stop supporting any shows where judges from the SV come to the US and place their breedings in the top three. My suggestion is that we stop supporting European handlers flying over and placing in the top five places over dogs handled by our own US handlers. My suggestion is that statistically we have the better dogs and that we move forward and develope progeny from US studs /females and stop sending our $$ business to Germany. Cut off the easy money and concentrate on breedings from the US. But that is just my opinion...and I am still doing research on the topic. |
by D.H. on 03 June 2005 - 18:56 |
| So where exactly did the US dogs come from...? Where exactly do most of the US VAs come from...? Are the dogs really "statistically" better at the US Sieger shows, or do more VAs in comparison to dogs shown just mean the US owners have deeper pockets? According to your view of political involvement, that would have to be the case then, wouldn't it? Maybe the US owners are just better in bed ;o). What about Canada? The dogs shown there must be really bad! Only one single VA... jeez! Does that make the dogs entered are worse, or does that mean that one VA is more valuable than or equal to the BSZS World Sieger? Do your research, my friend. Start with trying to find out why there is only one VA in Canada. That might enlighten you a little as to who determines what. BTW, how many people do you think would make the effort and go through the expense to travel across the country to a US Sieger show if only one VA was to be awarded there? You'd most likely see the same low entries you see in Canada. VA titles are not awarded in a special ratio. Look at the BSZS 04 females. Fewer dogs shown, more VAs awarded. It also varies from year to year. If more deserving dogs are present, more VAs will get awarded. The VAs go to the dogs that have earned it in that judges opinion. Whichever way they have done that (boy these judges must have a very happy sex life!). The dog that has the best and most expensive handler at the other end of the leash, is that fair if yours doesn't have such a handler? The dog that has the best training money can buy behind him, is that fair to the owner trained dog? The dog that is heavily campaigned across the country or maybe even internationally and is well known to all sort of judges and other GSD enthusiasts, is that fair to the dog whose owner only shows locally? Where did I say that competition is fair? I said competition is tough! Many people go to the BSZS for other reasons than to win. Do you think that from around 3000 entries last year, every single person that entered thought their dog is going to be the ONE? If your dog has never been in the top ranks at the locals and you still go, what will your chances be realistically? But those people still go! They go there and show their dogs for the experience, to mingle, to network, to sell dogs, to buy dogs, to see dogs, to see people, to be seen, to have a good time, to bitch a little, or a lot, to meet with people from far away that all flock to the event so that they can have a good time and meet up with as many people as possible that a regular trip would never allow them too. The list is endless. It is a sport. You participate because you are passionate about it. You participate because you want to be part of it, because you enjoy it. Winning is the icing, with chocolate sprinkles. Placing in the first ring is still the icing. Placing in the second ring is still the icing. Placing lower was still worth the trip for most, because they were there. Being there was exciting! There are very few that go home bitter. Fewer still stay bitter... |
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