Main > Dog bite at the schutzhund club. (136 replies)
by sueincc on 24 April 2008 - 00:03
I hope this hasn't put your mom off our breed, although I could certainly understand if it did. I also hope she knows this was in no way her fault, and the way it was handled was wrong. Someone needed to step up to the plate and at least apologize to her. If it had been me, and some asshole tried to patronize me by saying "It's just a scratch" I might have been unable to control the back of my hand against their face.
by Brittany on 24 April 2008 - 01:36
by VonIsengard on 24 April 2008 - 01:49
This is exactly why I don't pet anyone else's dog at any schutzhund, PSA, etc. event or training. Anywhere where dogs are being trained to do bitework, to me is not a "social" zone and I'm not not gonna go make buddies. These dogs often know exactly what they are there to do, can often hear the sounds of bitework and get VERY amped.
However, was the handler wrong? Damn right, they should've known better, they were ignorant and irresponsible. Shame on them. Either they cannot read that dog worth a damn, or don't care about risking the safety of others- they can't handle a dog like that either way.
Furthermore, anyone passing judgement on this dog without seeing the dog himself and exactly what happened firsthand is showing their complete lack of real dog training experience. Some of us have actually had REAL LIFE experience in rehabilitating aggressive dogs. Don't preach about what you know nothing about. (Brit-brit!)
by sueincc on 24 April 2008 - 02:04
Brittany I have had handler aggressive dogs and worked them through their issues. As a matter of fact my all time once-in-a-lifetimer best dog ever was handler aggressive. There is simply no way to explain on a message board how to handle these types of dogs. As far as enlightenment, I suggest you get yourself around to a few handler seminars, handle more than one dog, and if you get really lucky, a great trainer might teach you something - if you are willing to learn.
by cledford on 24 April 2008 - 02:10
Did anyone else pick up on the fact that the dogs owner was also doing helper work with a green dog? In my neck of the woods, only the more senior (longer in the tooth) helpers work green pups/dog, there is too much that can go wrong to quick and ruin a dog to warrent risking the use of a green helper. So, making an assumption here, this guy, who can't handle his own dog, is doing advanced helper work for the club? Huh? While I doubt I'd have much desire to work a *truly* handler agressive dog, I doubt that if I ended up with one that I'd be allowing little old ladies to pet it either.
Anyhow, the infection issue IS A BIG ONE. There is a famous trainer/handler who was bitten in throat during a seminar several months ago and she is still fighting to recover from the infection.
by sueincc on 24 April 2008 - 02:12
Excellent point, Calvin. I would want my green dogs and pups should only be worked by the decoy who can best read and work dogs!
by Silhouettes on 24 April 2008 - 02:22
KC, that isn't fair.. if someone tells you, you can pet their dog, you assume it's okay, there are plenty of friendly schutzhund dogs out there, a good example is Olex, I pet him, he kissed me.
If your dog would bite someone in the face for no reason, he or she is not a very good dog, I want a dog that is clear headed when making a decision to bite or not. I like my dogs.
This dog also wasn't doing bitework, the wife did obedience with him.. they don't do bitework with him, because he's aggressive. Trainer/partial owner said nothing to us, not a single word..
I think the dog should be put down...he's dangerous... the couple even admitted, he would not recall for nothing.
by VonIsengard on 24 April 2008 - 02:33
Well, Sil, thats why the owner of the dog is at fault, he should've never said that. I wouldn't expect your mom, being inexperienced, to know better. It was his responsibility. He's probably ignoring you for liability purposes...which tells me he's been in this boat before.
I have a SchH dog too, that people can pet. Would I let someone pet her at a club environment? No, we are there to work. But that's just me.
Why was the dog even there? The SchH club isn't going to fix their behavioral problems.
by Silhouettes on 24 April 2008 - 02:42
They brought him out to do some obedience work with him, apparently they never bring him out according to other club members... I can't get it thru my head, why they would say she could pet a dog like that... and all I keep seeing in my mind is 4 people taking steps back when he bit her, and not even correcting him? The more I think about it, the more it pisses me off. I am going to go this weekend, so they can see what he did to her.. but there is no way I can be a member, I will be bitter, and frustrated at their ignorance, and it will eventually cause me to snap, and I can be a real b!tch, then I end up with a bad name, which is the last thing I need, but you know what.. that is MY mother.
I don't think they are going to offer to pay expenses, I already brought up about the prescriptions she had to pay for, and they didn't say anything.
by VonIsengard on 24 April 2008 - 02:47
People freeze up in the face of aggression. I had to peel a rottweiler off a Greater Swiss mountain dog just 2 days ago because the owners froze. Its not uncommon for people to lock up.
Really, a dog with issues like that does not belong at a sport club. They need to seek the help of a trainer experienced with aggression or admit that this is not the dog for them.
I think you should DEMAND they pay for her medical treatment, perhaps remind them a few prescriptions are a cheaper than a lawsuit...
by Silhouettes on 24 April 2008 - 03:12
After 10 years, I'd think a person would be over the frozen stage, perhaps not.
by AgarPhranicniStraze1 on 24 April 2008 - 03:55
Silhouettes- They are keeping mum about offering to pay medical bills more than likely because it's almost like they are admitting fault/negligence; which IMO is pretty damn clear BUT I'm not the judge or jury deciding this case either. If the prescriptions were costly and this incident is putting a dent in your mother's wallet then I would not just sweep this under the rug. Why should she have to burden herself with bills on top of having to deal with the trauma of being damn near killed by a GSD going for her throat??
Also IMO I would have put the dog down immediately if he were mine. I love all animals BUT I could not EVER in life take the chance that if there were a "next time" the dog decided to just snap out he could potentially kill someone or seriously hurt them. Even if you tried to place him with someone who felt they had the proper experience and lifestyle the dog would be kept safe from ever biting again I still would not be totally comfortable because I know what the dog is capeable of IF he ever decided in his own head to just lash out.
What really concerns me most is this dog did not just nip, bite the closest body part. He actually lunged for the THROAT which tells me he meant to kill or severely hurt her and without no provocation.
You guys might lynch me for saying this but he'd be in the GAS CHAMBER by dinner time.
by Get A Real Dog on 24 April 2008 - 04:01
This incident and many of the resposes here show both poor judgement or inexperience.
1) EVERY dog bite can/should be prevented by the handler. There is not one single dog bite scenario that could not have ben avoided by safe handling and knowing your dog. Every dog will tell you they are going to bite before they do it.
2) Hello people you are in a venue where we are training dogs to bite. This is called being aware of inherent risks.
3) I find it funny that almost everyone lables human and/or handler aggression as "nervy" or unstable. Almost all of the people I here say that are inexperienced GSD/SCH people. The people who do not have the slightest idea how to read a dog. There is no doubt in my mind that the lady who got bit did something which provoked the dog, albeit unintentional. I see people all the time bend over a dog, give him a nice pat on the ribs, try to kiss it, grab there ears, etc. Something set this dog off. That does not automatically mean the dog is "nervy" or unstable. It could be sharp, dominante, or just a cocky ass of a dog. All of which I myself find appealing and signs of a good dog. That may not be your cup of tea but just because someone may not like it does not mean it is bad.
4) What really burns my hide is the people who say the dog needs to be put down or demanding to call Animal Control. Anyone with experience and a true love of bite work, knows that is the worst possible thing you can do. If you truley love the sport nd understand dogs you would never do this. Never. I have gone to the hospital 3 times for dog bites. I made up a story 3 times. I was working on my car, building a fence, etc. One doctor knew what it was and pressed me. I told him it was a dog bite and he preceded to hound me about identifying the dog. I told him there was no way in hell and if he didn't want to treat me I was on my way home.
I have had one of my dogs bite someone 2 times. Once was a training accident and a bad bite to the face. The person was a new decoy. He did not say a word. The other one was an abused dog and I let someone get to close and was a 1/2 behind when the dog told me he was going to bite her. This person was just a regular dog person, never exposed to bite work and she didn't identify my dog at the doctor or call A/C.
I am sorry this happened to the lady. It is inexusable and totally the fault of the handler. Just about everyone gets lulled into a false sense of security and gets lax with their dogs. Unfortuantely, this one ended in an injury. An injury I am sure was way overdramatized in this thread.
Anyone who advocates a dog being put down, without knowing the dog (which the OP stated they did not and no one posting does either) does not truely understand bitework and probably should not be participating in it. If I even heard someone say anything like this they would not be training with me.......ever.
by 1doggie2 on 24 April 2008 - 04:17
I understand the frozen part with the members. I have been bitten on the field. The dog was a high amp dog on a good day. Had not been worked in a long time was taking his turn lose on the field, the owner called me over to look at a litter of pups we co-owned. The minute I stepped on the field, in his mind I was fair game. he came across the field like a freight train, I had never caught a dog before and knew I was catching one now with no sleeve, just a heavy jacket and sweater beneath. My mind went into slow motion as I watched him come at me and I remember thinking why is no one reacting, I braced myself and offered up my arm. He went thru the jacket and also got my breast, I do not think i was strong enough to hold him without him pushing into me, or just inexperiance on my part. It happens, you can be caught off guard. When It was all over, i was really pissed, he tore my favorite blouse under the sweater.
i am sorry for your Mom and would do as other posters have stated, watch the infection. You will not have to force the issue with the club, your Mom sought medical help, they will report it. In my case I knew the dog and the temperment of the dog, I should have known better than to have gone on the field. We get comfortable in an enviorment where we should be more aware and take responsibilty for our own saftey. The best dog in the world has a bad day and the field is where we go to train, work out issues with our dogs. They are not our pets when on the field, I think we forget this. I feel blessed that they forget the field when off and become our pets when we leave it.
by Silhouettes on 24 April 2008 - 04:43
Get A Real Dog, did you read my posts at all? The dog was deemed unworthy for schutzhund YEARS ago because he was outright aggressive, that's why they were GIVEN the dog, so no, my mother did not provoke the dog unintentionally.
I am a pretty good judge of character when it comes to dogs considering I got my first Shepherd when I was 9, and this dog has nerve issues, you did not see the dog, and how it reacted, I did, it could be bloodlines or the way it was raised.
I was waiting for someone like you to say something smart like "she provoked the dog" bs. Just bs. We have had German Shepherds for over 10 years, I think my mother knows how to approach one, and if the dog isn't approachable say something.
Maybe people who can't breed or train properly should not be in this sport.
You damn right the dog should be put down, who in the right mind would want an aggressive dog like that?
I'll put my name on that one.
That is my MOTHER, you speak of. Disabled, just had surgery not two months ago. Who do you think you are, buddy?
"Get a real dog" That name is awfully contradicting, considering in my personal opinion a REAL dog, will not bite unless it's told to.
by Silhouettes on 24 April 2008 - 04:52
1doggie2, that's the spirit! Be pissed about the sweater! That was probably bad, because you could see it coming and your thinking "oh god.. ", did he get you real bad? I can't imagine being attacked by a dog, I'm only 5' I would probably fall right over.
by Brittany on 24 April 2008 - 04:57
by AgarPhranicniStraze1 on 24 April 2008 - 05:06
GARD- I usually agree with your points but this time I disagree. Maybe the OP over exaggerated the incident, maybe it really happened that way, we don't know we weren't there and we didn't have an opporutnity to hear the dog owners version of events. BUT even giving the benefit of the doubt that the OP's mother did something to "trigger" the dog why did he go for the throat and not her arm, leg, or even face? And why didn't the handler see the sign to prevent the dog from pursuing his impulse to bite?
I can see a decoy getting accidently bit because they are on the front lines of training that things can get crazy instantly, especially if you have new handlers learning and also they realize that's the chance they take doing helper work especially with new people, unfamiliar dogs ect. but I can't see an innocent bystander who goes to pet a dog they were told was "ok" to approach getting her throat bit.
I like a dog with some edge to it as well, but I also want a dog that knows how to think a situation through and exhaust all options to warn you the bites coming next if you don't back off.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that the situation went down the way the OP stated. Disabled mother asked to pet dog, owner says sure go ahead, she reaches out to pet him and boom he snaps out and goes for her throat, unprovoked; lady never tugged ears, bear hugged him, got in his face or any of the things we teach the public about approaching ANY dog. What do you make of that? Is that a dog you'd want to own, want to breed, sell to someone down the road, let your children share a home with or feel relaxed having people around it? Would you venture to say it's "unstable"? What real purpose would it serve for anyone to own a dog that's that unpredictable?
by Silhouettes on 24 April 2008 - 05:31
Let me put it to you this way..........
My mother has the BEST attorney in our state, she went up there over something completely different, attorney saw her neck, mom explained... he booked an appt ASAP when he saw it, she did not even ask for an appt..... and this lawyer does not take joke cases, huge lawfirm.
She doesn't want to press charges, it was the parents property.... they are elderly, live on a farm.. I would have to target them, they risk losing homeowners.. that isn't something we want.
My mother's concern is for whoever could be next, second is medical expenses... we do not want to hurt anyone.
by 1doggie2 on 24 April 2008 - 05:35
I had always wondered if I could stand there and catch one of those freight trains. I was so glad as I watched him come at me, I did not turn and run. I know that sob and was always careful around him on a good day. You are very correct In what was going thru my mind. What always fasinates me, is how our minds go into slow motion when we are in trouble. I had a brand new bra I just paid $70 bucks for and my blouse I liked so much I only wore it once inawhile and he shredded it. I was lucky, I am not sure a female ever caught him before and it slowed him some, just as he was coming up at me, but he was not going to give up entirely. i had puncture wounds in the arm and breast. I knew better than to try and pull away, he would have shredded me. I was not bad enough that I went for Medical help. I just watched for infection and treated myself. I think the guys on the field thought I was nuts, I was so ticked off over the blouse, funny what we focus on. i hope your Mom does well.