Putting Drives on top of a nerve base.: Breeders" views? - Page 3

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by Gustav on 24 May 2017 - 20:05

YES!

by Centurian on 24 May 2017 - 23:05

B-E YES !!! you are absolutely correct. TEMPERAMENT [ and I will add to this conversation HEALTH ] are the two most cardinal aspects to breeding . This CONCEPT has been lost ... this lack of this concept , foremost in thought is what I tried to open up foor discussion in the thread ' Just Another Sport Dog'. The descrepancy of the balance of drive and temperament that has caused not only a schism of show line vs working line , which in respects now a day are two , that is two , distinct set of GS genetics , but more so the creation of subcategories within those genetics that have people up in a tizzy over IPO , LE this dog for that or not and so on.
I reference the over aggression in LE dogs , to support the changing of the GS and I referenced mentality- to create discussionalong these lines in another thread. .

So ..... when I hear that temeprament is not foremost , NOT THE BASE... then what is being bred ? a Sound GS with an unsound GS ? with the expection that later in breding soundness can be bred back in to the genetics ? So ... the foolishness of not thinking of temeperament first... IMOp , if BOTH GS are not sound .... and that is what temperament is soundness , there should be no breeding. [ Duke is right to bring up definitions ] . Therefore : Temeperament is an overall term , comprising of definitve , not character, but rather , genetic characteristics that describe the mental state and make-up of the dog . Those factors are genetically based. In each dog they cannot , never can , be altered or changed. So I repeat- When breeding each mate should be sound ! If a dog does not have an acceptablr stress level- game iver - not breed worthy - that simple.
Duke's advice :
The factors that contribute to Temperament - Stress level - the dogs ability to cope with novel envirnomental input .
Recovey Time- the amount of time a dog takes to when encountering sommewthing new that startles it.
Socialability - ther ability to tolerate people , dogs and animals .
Hardness- the ability of the dog to endure physical discomfort
Aggression - [ there are subtypes of aggression and is complicated ] so for one attribute of aggression : the willingness to inflict pain on another.
No dog should be bred unless it has correct temerament. What I have often wrote about on many posts ... many breeders , many sport people , and many LE personal do not... they do not understand temperament and I gave in another thread/post the reference to many LE dogs being over aggressive. They think that is good / it is not... and over agreesive GS is not better than an IPO GS not in LE . It has faulty temeprament !! Many breeders in Europe as I wrote push this out to fullfill the LE needs and for the money. So I get disturbed when I hear arguments about this dog for that or that knowing all the dishonety that exists for suspecting canine people.

As Duke pointed out and what I want the posters to get on the same wavelength with , is : DRIVE. Personally I dismiss that word from the dog world and in it's place I describe : the specific behavioral traits / attributes . AS GUSTAV correctly wrote.. these breeders can selectively breed for and they should be , depending on the need of the dog doing a specific utility . This comment is in line what Duke referenced in the other thread ' Just a Sport Dog'. Readers have to realize : this is Cardinal ... each behavioral trait [ that is a trait carreid to the next generation from genes } has a quantaitive as well as a qualitative aspect. This is so crucial and I have the feeling that many mnay breeders either don't understnad this or they ignorantly refuse to pay heed to this.

So if one has sound GS /sound temperament... then you decide about what you want or don't want to selective breed for behavioral traits : Such as Retrieve Instinct for one example... This has been selectively bred .. hence golden and lab retrievers. Another behavioral attribute [ I forget the German phrase for this ] but it is a word that describes the dog's willingness to interact with and to, take the handlers direction. No not please.. pleasing implies something else.. this is an innate behavioral genetic trait. I think the new buzz word now is ? biddable ? . And that trait is important , yes for a shepherd to work with his dog , yes ? BTW the genetic traits that make up temperamnet also have a quantative aspect. . Not to complicate things but to be full in explaining : Aggression can be low , medium or high ... but this is way complicated for the average reader to master in discerning. Ditto for socialability and hardness. etc etc. Further discussion non this complicates the discussion.

Now drive ...... stupid, foolish word.... better to think in terms of : a specific predispostion / motivation that has a genetic base.... if you want to think in terms of quantity then think and ad the words 'high' ,'low' moderate/medium' too. Getting back to Gustav.... " we breed for what is needed for the utility purpose of the GS . That is to say , we selectively breed not soley for the attribute but the quality and quantity of the attribute that suits a GS to perform the tasks that it needs to do. We don't breed herding dogs that have such a motivation to control the sheep that it will kill the sheep. . The aggression has to taake on a quality , the ability ti fearlessly cintrol yet be tempered wnough not to kill and injure .

WHY temperament first ? Another reason I agree with B-E : is that we always always always need sound temperament. Can an unsound GS work , absolutely. I have trained nay temperament unsound canines to do Sch.So , yes.. But is that what is best for the breed and breeding ? NO ! Realize .. there are multitudes of behavioral traits that are bred at once. IMOp ... I have found that if you breed for this then you may quite often lose that .... Breed for one trait and you risk losing a litlle something on another trait. So , for conversation ... if you selectively breed for a dog more willing to take handler direction , you may also breed a dog more so in the tendency to be more submissive . Also you may unintentionally decrerase other traits such as dominance. For police , only as an example you want a dog that can work highly away from you and want to dominate the criminal. So ... breeding is not an exact science and very much an art. Personally , I think , can't prove this , but seems to be from 30 + years with the GS and other breeds, that certain traits tend to be paired.
BTW - courage is not a trait that is 'solely' based in genetics .. it is a dynamic between a combination of traits and the result of those interacting with experience.
Breeding is not so easy ........

IMop , to discuss breeding drives and trying to correct temperamnet is as foollish as spitting into the wind. You disregard the most crucial factor Temperament and SPECIFICALLY you cannot account for the fact, when you think 'drive', that there are quatifiable and qaulified aspects whto Beahvioral Attributes when breeding.


by joanro on 25 May 2017 - 01:05

Centurion, great post. Very much enjoyed the read.

In your post, you said you were going to bring up temperament in the other thread, 'Just Another Sportdog '.

On page five I posted a comment about the importance of temperament in selection in breeding. It's here in this link;

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=890304-just-another-sport-dog&p=5

I absolutely agree that temperament is 'not fixable' when selecting breeding dogs.


by Gustav on 25 May 2017 - 10:05

Some thoughtful insights infused in recent threads, instead of dogmatic this is right only or snarky comments....wonderful!

by Centurian on 25 May 2017 - 12:05

Yes Jo I had seen your comment to B- E about temperament in the thread. there have been many posts in threads that I have not commented on ... because no sense getting invloved in nasty discussion , when I know if many understood how to evaluate temperament there would be no argument.

One thread involved Mithuna discussing a dog that was high in suspicion and spot on with people in the house... No where in the thread did I see someone comment that the dog in topic was unsound . This is not within the norm of a GS to be highly suspicous , on point , in a neutral context when there are visitors in the house. Normalcy , is that a GS can be highly suspcious at times , yes . But the GS must be discerning also to determine when there is no longer any threat at hand , to be able to turn off , to now be at ease , indifferent. A GS always on point is not normal for the GS is a pensive , problem solving animal.

How can I liken this ? A person can be suspicious in certain circumstances. But when a person is habitually or constantly suspious when , he should have concluded there is no cause for alarm but continues to be alarmed and suspicious... that person is either schizophrenic , psychotic or simply paranoid personality disordered person. So .. a dog .. any different ? A dog that can be suspisous but unable to reset to being relaxed and even keeled ,, after a certain pont of no threat, - what do you think is the difference ?

Another thread had a video of a dog coming off a bite ...and ran away as the judge approached. There was an uproar as to why this and why that about this dog. I didn't get invoved .. for me , in 10 seconds I understood what the dog did and why it did it. Simple , I just looked into the dog's behavior in the whole video and understood temperament .. I understood the dog's temeprament from which the dog's behavior in that scenario originated.... that leads me to know what is in the dog's head. The temperament , which affects what was or not done to this dog , including training , leads me to in see , what was done or not done to this dog in the past that lead the dog to beahve in that specific instance and situation. If people understood temperament .. there would be no arguments.

So , what does this have to do with the post ? Correct Temperament- if you do not start in a breeding program with that ... it's all over. An academic comment : the genes bred , are responsible for directing the brain's function which lends to behavior . In short I have discussed ' the mentality ' of the GS and how through time this " Mentality" *** has been greatly changed and impacted. Even for sport as well as LE canines. IMOp , this is due to the ignorance in breeding by not paying attention to temperament. qualitatively and qualitatively. Many throw around the lingo , civil , drive and other terminology that falls short of being comprehensive in description . And the really inexperienced , have no idea what they mean , is meant by ,their use of the words in relation to what they need to accomplish. . Drive is not descriptive enough to enunciated eveything invloved in behavior- that simple .. Nither is the word , civil. Nor is prey or defense. So if you limit yourself in the comprehensive idea/ knowledge , then how can you expect to be breed comprehensively. They ignore what they should be doing in breeding or they plum don't know what they are doing in breeding. For example : how does one determine if a dog is so called civil as opposed to a dog that is unsound in the rerspect that it has an exaggerated aggressive response when stimulated / startled. For an exaggerated respose to stimuli is unsound behavior , temperament deficiency. . That is to say the word civil ,in and of itself is inadequate . So if you breed so deemed civil dogs , sort to speak , and you don't understand from where the aggression genetically originates , that is the temperament , then how in the world does anyone expect the dog to have " good mentality " and to have the desirable ' good work' . Without good menatlity .. does not matter what traits you selectively breed for. You have , a nut case dog on your hands [ use of ' nut case ' to emphasize]

Same with sport dogs , but the opposite of the civil example above. .... I have seen the bent, in malinois . Some lines have been selectively bred for sport that these lines have lost their ability to be good LE dogs. As I wrote , it is hard or almost impossible to breed back those genetic traits. IMOp , these lines have now been , for LE , destroyed , unrecoverable. Because either intentionally or unintentionally the temeprament and mentality has been changed .

If you don't think temperament and how you shape a canine's brain is the most important as B-E first stated ... then I give up.


by vk4gsd on 25 May 2017 - 12:05

TLDR

Koots

by Koots on 25 May 2017 - 14:05

MYSH Wink Smile

(translation = maybe you should have)


by Centurian on 26 May 2017 - 20:05

I made a mistake ... by not explaining to the general reader. VK- I keep this short for you :-)

Those aspects that make up Temeprerament cannot be entirely or so easily if ever possible corrrected, if faulty . If you have an exrememly low unsound stress level dog , by breeding to it a normal moderate stress level dog ,that breeding does not mean that you get progeny with a good normal stress level . Genetics does not work that way ! I liken this by having a malfunctioning Microsoft base computer and adding a few components to it and thinking that you will change that to a functionally operating Apple computer. Why ? because they are two different operating systems. Breeding is not a recipe whereby you start with something saltless and in the mix you add salt to get a great tasting dish. So think of temperament as the haerdwire operating base of a dog. Yes hardwired innate predispositions from genetics.

by Gustav on 26 May 2017 - 22:05

Yup!

by beetree on 26 May 2017 - 23:05

It is a wonder there are so many breeders out there! I never knew they would need to be rocket scientists, anthropologists and psychologists just to get it right. 🤔😊

And then, to have all* of them lose or abuse the original traits of versatility that attracted the popularity of the GSD breed in the first place.

 

*except for those breeders replying on this thread. 






 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top