Bob Fox wants me to breed a dog with SEVERE hip dysplasia - Page 3

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by Prager on 14 December 2018 - 05:12

Gustav good post. I would like add that all canines have an ability to produced HD. Even wolves in captivity in 3rd generation will start to produce HD. The why is bacuase in nature the HD genes are by environment pushed to the bottom of the deck - so to speak. Where in captivity such Natural pressure does not exist thus the "deck' of the genetic card is getting mixed and the HD starts to spread to the top of the deck. Of course, people who believe that HD is strictly environmental will tell you that it is environment the wolf lives in when captured which causes HD. Of course, they forget that even who gets the flu and who does not is genetically predisposed. genetics are the primary cause of HD and environment is a secondary or inducing factor.

by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 07:12

Gustav, we all are cognizant the parents 'aren't going to pass environmental induced effects through sperm and eggs,'

and obviously they arent going to pass their good hip conformation in the sperm and eggs, either...not if the litter is raised on slick surface  and fat as butcher hogs while the bone of the hip joints are forming no matter how many littermates of the clear parents are also clear.

  but they are going to pass sloppy ligaments and lack of muscle...same as a holstien does not have as much muscle as an Angus, no matter how much you feed her or excersize her.....now add to that birthing the pups in a swimming pool, for example, and the pups most likely will have developmental hd....even if every dog in the pedigree are hd clear. Because lack of muscle does not help the pup to overcome adverse environment while the bone of the hips are forming. That is key.

So, Gustav, if the littermates of all the dogs in the pedigree have hd, but the parents don't yet they produce hd litters, then maybe it does not matter if the parents are hd clear. How about looking at the conformation of the parents who have siblings with hd...or look at how the litters of the parents were raised that so many had hd... Better yet, don't breed dogs who's littermates all have hd.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 December 2018 - 08:12

Not breeding dogs whose littermates have ALL got HD isn't the issue, surely ? Most people would baulk at that - unless they did not know / never bothered themselves to find out. But I bet there are a lot of litters born to dogs where ONE sibling has been confirmed with HD, and breeders have gone "Oh, what's the risk ?" or "Oh its environmentally caused anyway", and bred from them.

And it isn't to say that is wrong, anyway. There are other factors to consider in the choice of breeding dogs than whether HD is present in the siblings; or even, arguably, whether the actual dog to be used for breeding has less-than-wonderful X rays. Its all checks & balances.

But Malcolm Willis's work in the UK over 20+ years DID chart a gradual reduction in the high levels of HD in the breed (and other breeds), the more dogs were X rayed and scored and breeding with poor hips was avoided. Since that is undeniable, the chances are that if ALL dogs were X rayed and NO dogs were bred that had scores greater than that breed's 'Mean', we would see HD almost eradicated, given enough time.

by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 09:12

Hund: the chances are that if ALL dogs were X rayed and NO dogs were bred that had scores greater than that breed's 'Mean', we would see HD almost eradicated, given enough time.
 

Me: And what desirable traits would also be eliminated?


by Gustav on 14 December 2018 - 13:12

If I was given a choice ( all other things being equal), of breeding to a dog with mild hd who came from a litter of six other littermates that were xrayed normal; and a dog that is xrayed normal or excellent and came from litter of six other littermates in which three were mild or worse....I would select the mild dog based on genetic probability.
Again, I have said there are definitely environmental elements involved in HD, but I have found that genetic probability is the strongest element in achieving functional working hips.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 14 December 2018 - 15:12

Gustav, this is exactly what I have learned over the years with my parents breeding. There are dogs that have produced entire litters, one after another where all dogs ended up with HD but one or maybe two. Does the environment play a roll and can it influence the development of a dog? Absolutely but you cannot deny genetics when it comes to HD.

by Anne5928 on 14 December 2018 - 16:12

There is no record with OFA of the sire or dam in this case having X-rays certified. Apparently, he doesn’t believe in HD, or ED anytime it’s negative results. I have proof of the condition/ weight of the dog every time she has had exams with the DVM. Is there a place here I can attach the X-rays?

by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 18:12

If the hd clear dog from a litter with hd has the *same* genetics as the HD siblings and so will produce hd, then why bother testing before breeding a dog...it makes zero sense that selection is for naught.... That the selected clear dog has the same bad gentics as the HD littermates is counter intuative....if that was the case then there is no reason for selection for any traits.

I was not asking about "mild HD"....what I was talking about is a pedigree where every dog in the pedigree ( im talking both dogs used for breeding) have good to excellent hips and they still produce hd....selection is not going to solve the problem then if it is all genetics. Because for ten or twelve generations hd free dogs are still producing hd and that includes thousands and thousands of dogs tested, if it was only genetic, it would be eliminated by now.

And Gustav, your comment that out of all clear dogs in a pedigree, they all have littermates that have hd is not what I have experienced in my limited 15 years of breeding only 26 litters and testing random fifty percent of all those progeny, (but some litters I tested all of them), I have had only one pup with hd. The dam had two other litters by two different dogs with no hd in any of them....in fact, littermates of the HD pup, has one OFA excellent....so out of 6 in that litter, one had severe HD, one has Excellent, and the other four good. But the little pup that had hd got jumped on by the dam when she was only four weeks old. I saw it happen. She had developmental hd but no one would know that if I had not seen her get spread eagled by the dam. Is that also genetic hd that the rest of the litter are going to pass on? No! It is not.


by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 18:12

Bearenfang, how were those pups raised from the day of birth till eight weeks when they went home?

by duke1965 on 14 December 2018 - 18:12

have to disagree with that way of thinking gustav, for multiple reasons,

first, you dont breed the genepackage from your dogs siblings, you breed your dog, and with current outcrosslevels, genepackages of littermates are way different,

second, one have to look at each individual case of bad hips on its own, as of why its bad, looking at actual xrays will tell you more than looking at scorecards

third, I personally know one(linebred) male that had several littermates with bad hips for various reasons, male in case was hips and elbows clear, he bred close to 90 females, and majority of first,second and third generation after him have perfect hips till today

I personally think that we have to look at each individual xray to see what is going on, as there are way to many variables, kibble/puppyfood being one major contributer IMO,


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