German Shepherd Dog > Ok to ask Buyers to Neuter/Spay puppy? (73 replies)
Ok to ask Buyers to Neuter/Spay puppy?
by fawndallas on 16 April 2012 - 23:28
|Rose is not registered (yes, this will be her only litter. yes, it was planned. yes, the breeding will benefit the breed. yes, I spent as much having Rose proven [health] for the breeding as if she was registered. no, I am not going into the breeding business.); Coza (stud) is. Any puppies that will be sold; I am asking $400 (recommended by stud owner). This price includes basic training (part of the purpose of the litter is to establish a training reputation).|
All that said, is it acceptable for me to request that any buyers have their puppy fixed? I was even considering to have it done for them for an additional fee.
by SitasMom on 17 April 2012 - 00:00
place an extra 200$ to the price of each puppy and tell new owners that you will give them 200$ when they show proof of spay or neuter.
by Rogerpodger on 17 April 2012 - 13:11
|No its not really. It is up to your clients to decide. If you are concerned with unwanted pups or badly bred pups in the future you should not have had your bitch covered. Also I can not think of any vet agreeing to spey / castrate puppies|
by Jenni78 on 17 April 2012 - 13:21
|Take your rose-colored glasses off, Roger. There are oodles of vets clamoring to castrate tiny pups, regardless of the harm it causes them. They make me sick.|
by Keith Grossman on 17 April 2012 - 14:05
|"Rose is not registered (yes, this will be her only litter. yes, it was planned. yes, the breeding will benefit the breed. .."|
by magdalenasins on 17 April 2012 - 14:35
|How is having all the puppies fixed going to benefit the breed? Or are you keeping some back? Which can't be registered (except maybe by the CKC I guess?).|
by macrowe1 on 17 April 2012 - 14:41
|I'm confused how this is to better the breed, especially with you asking that all pups be neutered or spayed. What made you breed her in the first place?|
by aceofspades on 17 April 2012 - 23:18
|CKC=Continental Kennel Club not to be confused with the Canadian Kennel Club which is a legitimate breed registry.|
by fawndallas on 18 April 2012 - 00:11
|This is why I did not go into this in the first place. In general, people are too quick to judge.|
1. I am not asking that the puppies be fixed now. There is no way I will condone allowing them to be fixed before 3 months.
2. The puppies cannot be registered, because Rose is not registered; neither were her parents.
As for the rest of the questions......
Planned Pregnancy - I spent 2 years verifying Rose's Health and temperment to insure this is what I wanted to do. I also spent the same amount of time researching and viewing studs to insure their temperment and genetics complimented Rose's.
Litter Purpose - The purpose of the litter is to train and prepare for service dog specialization. This will help me to establish a proven reputation for training dogs. Rose had the ideal temperment for a handicap service dog. I have accually trained her has such for me. I want to give back the gift I was given in her.
1 - 2 of the dogs will be donated to a handicap service dog organization; once I have completed the basic training
1 of the dogs I will fully train for my father as a handicap service dog
1 -2 of the dogs my family and I are keeping. There is no intent to breed them.
Any puppies sold will include basic training with the option to have advanced training. At this point, any training I do will not include protection, show, or working. Based on the breeding, the puppies should generally have a type 3 temperment. I would not expect them to do well in any work that will require agressivness.
Best for the Breed - Many GSDs are bred for protection, police work, search, detection, and herding. It is very difficult to find a GSD breed line that is calm enough for handicap service work. I found this in Rose and in the Stud.
Why do I want to request for the puppies to be fixed - As Rose is not registered, I do not want any buyers to purchase with the intent to do BYB.
This will be Rose's only litter. I am not going into the breeding business. I am working to go into the dog training business.
by vomtreuenhaus on 18 April 2012 - 00:20
"It is very difficult to find a GSD breed line that is calm enough for handicap service work. "
by vomtreuenhaus on 18 April 2012 - 00:21
|Change your breed of choice, dont ruin ours.|
by Bhaugh on 18 April 2012 - 00:55
|Glad to know what I was thinking yesterday when I read this is the same most wrote. Fawndallas you cant get mad posting on an open forum because you bred a dog that is not registered. Most of us shake our heads wondering why. And I'm not sure what testing you have had done because twice you didnt come right out and say: "I sent hip and elbow films to OFA"....|
I'm sure you also know that in a litter not all the pups will have the desire to work. You could end up with no puppies wanting to work and you will be stuck to place the entire litter. You would be better to find what you want and buy it from parents that have already proven they can work AND be genetically sound. The last litter I had some years back cost me $4000.00 before I ever placed a pup. Just because you like Rose and her ability to do what you want doesn't mean she can even produce it.
To put things into perspective, I was evaluating rescue dogs for placement into working homes. Ive evaluated many dogs and less than a handful were even given the chance to move on for further training. Of those handful ONE OR TWO were accepted, the rest came back to rescue for pet homes. If you really want to train dogs for service work, start with dogs whose proven lines will give them the best chance to succeed. Doing it your way may seem cheaper but in the end will cost 5x as much. Been there done that.
by SitasMom on 18 April 2012 - 01:43
you've just opened a hornets' nest ....... you cannot win.
by Smiley on 18 April 2012 - 02:18
|Fawn...actually......what you wrote makes sense to me. I agree with you about service dogs and a lot of german shepherds don't have the temperament. I think that, as you said, pedigree is not really important for a service dog as most tend to be mixed breeds to start. |
It sounds like you are being very responsible in selecting proper health, finding a suitable mate, and being concerned for the future of the puppies.
Hopefully, Rose and her single litter will get you started on a service dog training program. I hope you have much success with your program as those service dogs are amazing gifts like you said.
P.S.- I have seen a requirement to spay/neuter a puppy in a contract. One breeder went so far as to request a copy of ever puppy buyer's license!! It wouldn't hurt to put it in your contract and Sitasmom had a great suggestion for you about adding to price and refunding once spayed/neutered. You can also interview the puppy buyers thoroughly and require references (make one a vet) and/or a home visit as well. That really should weed out a lot of the crappy puppy buyers.
by fawndallas on 18 April 2012 - 02:22
I am so sorry you are so short sighted on this wonderful breed.
by Smiley on 18 April 2012 - 02:26
Keep your head up! Service dogs are cut from a different cloth and like you said...temperament, temperament, temperament!!
One litter of unregistered puppies bred thoughtfully for a very specific and important purpose isn't the worst thing in the world!
Good luck and please train those future service dogs to the best of your ability!!
by Sunsilver on 18 April 2012 - 03:08
|I can't BELIEVE the responses to this thread!!|
WAKE UP, YOU IDIOTS! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BREED THAT WAS THE FIRST CHOICE FOR SEEING EYE DOGS FOR DECADES!
If it can no longer do the job of a service dog, it's the fault of breeders who have selected for the WRONG things!
Over the top ball and prey drive should NOT be the sole measure of correct temperament in the GSD!
Try telling my two Hearing Ear dogs they have the wrong temperament for the job!
by EuroShepherd on 18 April 2012 - 04:44
Ditto to Sunsilver, I too have a dog who is my hearing ear service dog. This breed is supposed to be utilitarian, multi-purpose.
Now my service dog is also a very fine protection dog, he is very good in bitework AND he is very social and trustworthy with people. Personally I believe that a GSD should be able to be both a protection dog and very safe and sound in public (how else could they protect?)
But what canine characteristics that work for one person doesn't work for everyone else too.
" I would not expect them to do well in any work that will require agressivness"
"Right, because that would require solid genetics and solid, stable nerve."
This rather sounds like a dog who doesn't possess aggression is incapable of having a stable temperament? So Labradors and Cavalier CKS who refuse to do bitework are automatically nervy, unsound dogs?
I do think that protection is part of the total GSD "package" but there are other, more important characteristics to be preserved than this one. There are many, many, many working line dogs that are the top of the field schutzhund/KNPV/mondioring/etc. that are lacking important GSD characteristics too. (Such as...many of these extreme high drive dogs are utterly incapable of herding, the REAL origional purpose of the breed.) One dog that comes to mind is a dog I personally know, an offspring of the famous working dog Hessel, who recently tried to kill a cow and came very close to smashing thru a fence to get at a herd of goats. A dog with extreme drives, great bitework, good with people and kids but excessively high energy and not particularly biddable. (speaking of biddable, I can't count how many times I've seen people online who care more about their dogs being high drive, sharp/civil and so "hard" that it takes a very heavy hand and overly-dominant handler to get these dogs to do obedience work. This breed is supposed to be willing to please it's master! Not willing to bite it's master's arm off if it didn't like a correction!)
Like Smiley said, one unregistered litter bred for a specific purpose isn't the worst thing in the world. I believe the KNPV folks are particularly fond of this kind of thing, even cross-breeding.
There are other things more important to bash than this.
by GSD Admin on 18 April 2012 - 06:26
|Just a couple of questions, what is the OFA results on this female and what health tests have been done?|
by Hundmutter on 18 April 2012 - 08:32
Hate to sound like an ignoramus but you've just referred to one set of initials that are completely new to me.
What is KPNV please ?