IPO vs "Real Dog" - Page 5

OK BW I post again its not gone...

BW

I recall Ma Haus Ming talking about precisely the dog I referred to, and he said people do not want them any more, but in 2017 he may be a litter. I also recall on working dog forum Mike Suttle talking about a dog ( a Mali ) called Carlos whom he described as an absolute danger to strangers. Mike says all he can do with the dog is to keep him warm and dry, feed him, and use him for breeding, and co exist respectfully. He admits that he has never been able to break the dog and he himself cannot even leash the dog to put in the kennel to eat. I think we would agree that Mike and Ma do have some standing in the working dog community. I think Carlos comes from the Van Leeuwen lines. Why do you keep insisting that such a dog is necessarily weak?

ps: I think Carlos is a dutchie and his full name may be Carlos Van Vos

@Mithuna, why would you want a dog like that?
Other than lawsuits what else could it bring to the table?

Here are two interesting edited excerps
A Police Dept rang ....they wanted the most serious dog she could get for some sort of riot dog......she sources a serious Dutchie .....called them to come see their new dog. ,,,the cop comes down and spent the next hour staring at the Dutchie going off at him in the kennel, then ...... says hes too serious for what they were looking for and promptly got back in his crusier and headed off.

".....you would be surprised at how many Americans dont appreciate them. I am always listening to people here tell me that a dog like xxxxx is way too much dog to be working on the street. It really upsets me to see that we as a society in America have begun to seek out weaker dogs instead of stronger or better handlers for our K-9 units. It really sucks when I hear a K-9 handler tell me that xxxxx is too much of a liabilty to have on the street meanwhile that same handlers dog is hiding under his car after Ron or ....test him."

"It sure is a modern society problem......excuses we hear are; They are not easy to train. Difficult to make high points with, not social enough ect.ect.
So as far as people like BW is concerned , I have to assume that  these persons lying about their experience and those on pbd ( in particular of the BW, and VK  ilk ) are paragons of virtue?

I am sorry but i see no rationale in your answer..

1.People during WW2 are different to people now. Not better not worse different.
Sociological evolution demands change, we did, why shouldnt the dogs?!

2.Just because i'm perfectly capable to defend myself doesn't mean that i should kill everyone i meet.

Babb I agree with your two points, but your point 2. cannot be a logical basis for concluding that these types of dogs are inevitably weak as certain persons on here continuously try to insist.

You focus on the experiences and opinions of two people. There will always be a small group of people that want dogs like that and have a use for them. You also don’t understand the “sales” and gamesmanship that is a huge part of working and training dogs in general. Want to know how a trainer that’s a helper and wants to sell a dog to someone? They’ll go all out on whatever dog they want to prove is weak and unless that thing is truly a monster…which few are…and run that dog. They’ll then bring out their dog, which is COMFORTABLE with them, has been TRAINED by them, and knows this helper inside and out, and show how strong this other dog is in comparison. The end user…99% of the time doesn’t understand how those two scenarios are different, and probably can’t tell that the second time around the helper isn’t going all out either.

You’re that guy…you want to take the experience and opinion of people that you agree with. You like their stories over the stories of others. You like hearing stories of how people aren’t strong enough to handle dogs…even though YOU are one of those people. You’ve admitted how you can’t handle a strong dog.

Think of real police work in this sense…if a dog is capable of doing it…they don’t care how the dog does it. If they can have a dog that does the job and doesn’t pose any extra liability…they’ll take that dog over the one that’s too crazy and will increase the liability. A dog bite/take down, is a dog bite/take down. It doesn’t matter how fast it happens or how hard a dog bites as long as it bites hard enough to take down the subject and allow for an apprehension. They don’t need Cujo. Cujo brings liability, Cujo brings multi-million dollar lawsuits which 99% of departments can’t handle.

I never insinuated that the dogs you bring up AFTER I write my posts are weak. I said that the majority of the time, a dog that reacts aggressively to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is weak and reacting out of fear. Dogs that do it out of a place of dominance and self confidence, are few and far in between. Even the few people you idolize can’t produce those dogs on a consistent basis. You have literally only been able to name ONE dog from Ming’s kennel that does that. Where are the others? Trust me, if he were to produce 10, 20, 30 of them on a yearly basis consistently, they’d find homes and people would search them out. There are definitely handfuls of people that can handle those dogs and would take them in a heartbeat. But they’re not produced consistently in those numbers…and many times from what I’ve seen (and I’ve seen hundreds more dogs than you have) they’re like that due to how they’re raised. No rules from day one, and at a year old they’re uncontrollable. Not enough dogs are raised that way in this world anymore…no matter what training program, sport or real work…foundation is laid from very early on, and “real world” manners are taught.

 

Really...start reading and using comprehension. I never said ALL dogs that react that way are weak. I said most are. When you see enough dogs...or test enough dogs...you'll figure it out. If you weren't paying the helper you went the one time to work your dog...and actually asked him to test your dog without any kind of expectation of future business and profit...you'd have a completely different picture of the dog at the end of your leash.

I took some bites from Carlos and Arko when Mike had them, so I think you are exaggerating. They were both real dogs, but when they were on the suit, their tails were happily wagging because they were high fight dogs and not stressed with a very high threshold for defense.

Apple
Those things were said by Mike among others. Then Mike must be making all these things up.

 

BW ,Ma named a few more but I just did not put their names. he said he dont breed that type anymore because not many people want them.

 

BW :I can't handle a strong dog? I was told and I had the sense that that dog would probably bite me in a couple weeks. I also said I would prefer to raise such a dog froma pup ;this  dog I had bit the very breeder within a few  weeks after returning him ( was told this by the breeder's spouse ). The breeder have been breeding , training, and placing dogs in LE for many years as well.

You try to discredit Ma by alluding that the dog demeanor is a product of upbringing rather than genetics. I retort that thousands of dogs are raised  without any kind of training and the grow to be just the opposite. So training /upbringing only partially explains current behavior.

I know he had issues with them, but he obviously was able to leash them and work them because I was witness to it.  Part of the issue is that the market for really dominant, aggressive dogs is small.  Even the military and police don't generally prefer that type of dog.  Society has become too litigious.